Martinex1: I've always been fascinated by the Super-Villain comics and am tempted to purchase them whenever I see them. But inevitably the book falls flat; perhaps it is too difficult to maintain empathy for a "bad-guy." But some books work better than others. Dr. Doom has headlined numerous runs, but rarely makes a long go of it. On the other hand, some team books like
The Thunderbolts had nice series. And the more recent version of
The Secret Six was actually written and drawn quite well and even though it starred some third tier characters was quite entertaining.
And what about the anti-heroes? Namor, the Punisher, and the Suicide Squad? Where is the line separating heroics and villainy? How do you define that? Have traditional heroes also crossed that line?
Today let's talk about all aspects about the villainous comic books. When the antagonist becomes the protagonist, what works and what doesn't?
So that's the broad topic... chew the fat!
16 comments:
Call me old-fashioned, but when a villain does indeed kill an innocent person or people-- or even a not-so-innocent hench-person-- then I've always thought it wildly hypocritical to make them the protagonist of their own series. I've never liked that tack in comics-- all the way back to Doom's solo feature in Amazing Adventures (or was it Astonishing Tales?). Yes, yes, there's a long literary tradition of having the Bad Guy be the protagonist of the story, I know. And Hitchcock's FRENZY does a brilliant job of making us almost root for the psychotic, charismatic serial killer when he finds himself in an unexpected jam mid-movie. But in comics-- it has never worked for me, because the on-going narrative is so protracted that earlier, truly-evil and unforgivable crimes are just sort of forgotten about or glossed-over or retconned so's a current writer can use the character w/out the burden of that character's past. The biggest example that comes to my mind is Magneto-- who was just about as evil as they come in the Silver Age. Eventually, though, he proved too "attractive" to leave alone, so through some astonishing manipulations and retcons of the character and his actions, he was transformed into a hero. Tell that to the families of the folks whose deaths he was responsible for over the years. Yep-- it's only comics-- but there's a fundamental base-line morality that makes me cringe at some of these books.
(Loved Thunderbolts, though. A much more nuanced exploration of the same phenomenon--)
HB
You mentioned and pictured two other series I'd really like to check out at some point (but wonder if I ever will): Thunderbolts (esp. the earlier stuff written by Busiek) and Ostrander's Suicide Squad.
I understand where HB is coming from, but I'm not as down on the idea of a super-villain (or villains) be the head-liner of a series, as long as it's handled right. There were some good stories here and there in both Super-villain Team-up and Secret Society of Super-villains. In fact, one of the better stories in SVTU was in fact featured in the last two issues, with Red Skull and Hate Monger.
With the anti-heroes, I like Namor - although he had an interesting history in the Bronze Age: he was basically a straight-up hero in his own series that ended in the early '70s, and in Defenders, but then went on to become one of the title characters in Super-villain Team-up. But then by the early/mid 1980s he was a full member of the Avengers. Wha-huh?
As for the Punisher, I was never a big fan and always considered him more of a villain - didn't like it when he became a gritty anti-hero.
Oh, by the way, you forgot to include yet another DC villain-based series from the '70s: Kobra!
Thinking of the Joker in particular, does he seem to be a more complex character in the pages of Batman than he did in his eponymous series? With Batman, there's a history... the "two sides of the same coin" sort of thing. But pitted against Green Arrow, the Joker seems just another gimmicky guy. In his case, as in the case of Doom, the Red Skull, or the Green Goblin, it's the depth of the relationship with the designated heroes that "makes" the villain. Pull that away, and there is no backstory as a solo character.
I'll nominate the Secret Society of Super-Villains as my "winner" in this genre. I loved that book as a child, and the few re-reads of done in the past couple of years have been enjoyable. I want to re-like Super-Villain Team-Up, but as I've said elsewhere the art is such a barrier.
Doug
I never cared for villain based books. The ones I actually read some of BITBA were Joker and SVTU. It wasn't the philosophical notion of a villain as protagonist that I was opposed to. I wanted to like these books. They just didn't work for me. Something about what Doug said - how do you have the Joker without Batman or Doom without the FF?
Tom
Over all these years, Thunderbolts is possibly the only successful villain-driven series. And that may be because at least some of the characters are genuinely looking for redemption.
Is this failure because we think that we are reading Batman for the Joker, but actually, darkness is only interesting as a counterpoint to the light?
Secret Society of Super-Villains was easily my favorite villain book as well. I think one of its strengths was that the featured villains changed fairly often. If you skipped a few issues it seemed to be a different series.
Otherwise I found villain centered books to get old really fast. It was hard to root for them and you knew they were going to lose.
Alan
Yeah, Thunderbolts was a good comic, but then they didn't stay "bad guys" for long. Kinda the same with Suicide Squad ... they're villains, but they're working for the good guys.
I liked the Punisher comics (especially Baron and Dixon's runs); I think the appeal of the Punisher is the same as Mack Bolan or Death Wish ... it's that cathartic wish people have about fighting back against the bad guys (though I think in the original Death Wish novel, vigilantism was shown as the wrong solution).
Mike Wilson
Villain can be a matter of perspective.
Namor was a villain upon his return in the Fantastic Four and had been a nemesis of the surface world even in his Golden Age days but that's from the point of view of the nominal heroes. When the stories shifted their perspective to Atlantis we see Namor as a hero, a reluctant king who has a number of issues but who is nonetheless brave and stalwart.
Likewise the Hulk is probably the most successful villain book, as he's a monster who destroys quite a bit of real estate and even some lives certainly, though we are privy to his inner struggles and know that along the way he has done quite a bit of good too. I've been reading early Hulk stories and despite the good the Hulk ends up doing it's rarely altruistic reasons, motivations we associate with heroes.
On the DC side of things, the one that stands out to me is Enemy Ace, the German war hero. Though he's fighting on the wrong side, his nobility and gallantry make him someone to admire even if we don't advocate his cause.
Rip Off
Ditto what Human Belly said. It's like when I found my son playing as the German soldiers during a WW2 battle in Call To Duty online with dozens of other players from all over the world. He had to be a German because all the American and British were taken. It didn't sit well with us, trying to "enjoy" Nazis killing the allies. On that tangent, lol, Cheers!
Super-villain Team-Up. It has a sentimental appeal to me; it served as my introduction to Doctor Doom and the Sub-mariner. I had no idea who these cats were (or really, what they were doing) but it served up the two-fisted titanic action that I craved as a young lad.
m.p.
Villains are foils for heroes; it doesn't work if they're used as protagonists.
A lot of those books were just very poorly done, in addition to being ill-conceived. For example, that Marvel Super-Heroes Dr Doom issue had terrible art by Larry Lieber, as I recall. And is there a cornier name than Doctor Doom? Nope.
Also, Sub-Mariner is one of those antiquated Golden Age characters that just doesn't work or make sense in the modern world.
Never have read Secret Society, did collect Super villain Team-Up. I think I liked the concept more than the actual book.
Rip- a solid "yes!" For Your praise of "Enemy Ace ". A truly great book. Kanigher and Kubert absorbed you so effectively in the character that his nationality becomes secondary to his basic decency. Some very powerful stories. Although, dog lover I am, it is hard to read the "puppy story"- don't ask, it's...it's..."sniffle"...
Thanks for all of the comments today. I tend to have a fine line to walk on the villain/hero definition. And it really ties to what HB said initially - I have trouble with a killer (particularly one who has neither repented nor been incarcerated) treated as a hero. I cannot get past the Punisher and what his character has done. Likewise I have a hard time with Wolverine. I actually liked Wolverine when he was initially in the X-Men and worked very hard to control and dampen his berserker rages. Once he started embracing those murderous impulses and using his claws so aggressively I started to have a serious problem with him and also those that supported him on the team. In my mind he should have become an enemy. And I am not just a Wolvie hater; I have the same type of feelings around the Black Knight's actions toward the Kree Supreme Intelligence and Dane is one of my favorite characters.
I can handle characters like Hawkeye and Black Widow as rehabilitated and remorseful criminals fighting for a second chance. I can root for the Thunderbolts (other than Zamo) who were truly trying to make themselves better. I've always liked Namor - and felt that he fought for what he believed was correct and for the most part was fighting to protect his undersea nation. And I thought the same of Doom - sure he wanted to rule the world, but he was pretty clear about his goal as well as his loyalty to Latveria.
But murderers and killers like Punisher, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Deadpool, Joker, etc - I just cannot get past that aspect.
I have to re-read Crime and Punishment and gauge how much I rooted for Raskolnikov.
Rip makes an excellent point about the Hulk - and I have to ponder that. I think my feelings for that character are a little different in terms of considering him a villain or even an anti-hero because he truly is out of control. I have to think about this because I truly do typically root for the Hulk. Is it because he is childlike and misunderstood despite being extremely dangerous?
Also, two books that perhaps I should have shared here are The Demon and Son of Satan - I assume they are anti-heroes at least, but truly have never read a single issue. Are they worth reading?
Secret society of Super-Villains? Pfagh! I would laugh if I had a sense of humor, and my laughter would be a terrifying thing to hear. Clods! Common criminal rabble! And who is this peasant who called me "corny"? Woe betide him. I will teleport him and his house to the moon, where I left the Red Skull.
Victor Von Doom
Latveria
Actually, Martinex, despite his name, Son of Satan definitely doesn't belong in this category. In the stories I've read, from the '70s, he actively suppresses his satanic heritage and prevents demons, sorcerers and whatnot from doing evil. (His sister, Satana, though, definitely falls in the anti-hero or even almost-villain category.)
The Demon is more of an anti-hero, as the demonic persona is pretty malicious, but he usually ends up doing the right thing, often under the influence of his alter-ego Jason Blood.
As for whether they're worth reading, it depends on how much you like the supernatural stuff. Not too long ago I read the entirety of the Son of Satan (and Satana) stories from the '70s, as collected in the Marvel Horror Essentials volume, and found it pretty standard Bronze Age fare. There's some good stories, but also some more mediocre ones. Steve Gerber wrote a big chunk of them, so if you're a fan of his you might want to check it out.
I read the entire stretch of the original Demon series by Kirby sometime ago; to be honest, besides the concept itself and a few of the initial stories, I found it pretty unremarkable.
Thanks for the tips Edo. I know John Byrne had a Demon run; I wonder how that was.
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