Making their way into the Marvel scene in late 1971 in Marvel Feature and following up in 1972 with their eponymous comic, the Defenders had my interest from the first time I saw them on the spinner rack. I constantly searched for back issues that tended to be at very reasonable prices. The individual characters may not have been my main collecting targets, but together they were something else entirely.
Despite the mystique of a team without ties, the Defenders bound together fairly well and I contend the core of the team weathered roster changes better and less frequently than the Avengers. And from the overall perspective of heroes in the Marvel world, they must have been a powerhouse team. Hulk, Namor, Valkyrie, Dr. Strange, Nighthawk and Hellcat were no slouches. Individually, the top three characters could mop up the floor with the majority of the Marvel villains. Let’s face it, the Hulk, Sub-Mariner and Doc could hold their own against the Avengers’ big three Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor.
But the book itself seemingly absorbed the feel of the team it represented. Were they second tier, mismatched semi-stars? Was the monthly good but not great? It was never a top seller. Despite interesting stories and even top notch art, it became a bit of a "non-book" and although it has had a few short resurgences it hasn’t been resurrected successfully like countless other properties. The comic itself came to represent to me the outsiders, the misfits, and the heroic underdogs.
Even the recent Netflix television show starred entirely different heroes (although it can be argued that at least Luke Cage and Daredevil guest-starred in some Defenders’ arcs). What is it about this team? They are so fascinating but also so often relegated to being “also-rans.”
But that is what gave The Defenders its unique feel and what pulled me in. These weren’t Earth’s Mightiest Heroes (though I guess that is debatable); they were the World’s Wary Warriors. How would you describe them? I pick up on their slight cynicism, their outsider status, and their weirdo tendencies. How many issues can go by without an angry outburst, somebody quitting the team, a character getting pulled back in out of obligation, friendship, camaraderie, and familial humor? Where else would Hellcat (a romantic teen character turned heroic acrobat) or Nighthawk (billionaire villain turned heart-and-soul sponsor) fit in?
Along the way Steve Englehart, Len Wein, Ed Hannigan, David Anthony Kraft, J.M. DeMatteis, and of course Steve Gerber and others led the way with the outlandish stories and quirky situations. Although the book had a variety of artists, Sal Buscema may be most closely associated with the team as he shepherded the Defenders through the early years. Don Perlin also handled a long run on the series.
My favorite tales involved the Badoon, the Squadron Supreme, and the Headmen. Those all seemed like fitting adversaries for the Defenders. The arc in which the Guardians of the Galaxy shared the stage and female and male Badoon confronted each other is a classic in my eyes; it is amongst my most cherished and collected arcs. The Headmen arc is just so strange and hilarious that it too is a classic.
When our peers talk about the Defenders, it seems like most really appreciate the series. But the team is rarely mentioned in the same breath as the Avengers, X-Men, JLA, Teen Titans or Fantastic Four. Why is that?
The series is full of drama and tragedy and pathos; it explores many philosophical themes but it rarely is considered as emotionally complex as the X-Men in their heyday? Why is that?
When comic collectors talk about female characters, Valkyrie seems to rise to the top in terms of admiration but she still never gets the spotlight like She-Hulk, Storm, Rogue, or others. Why is that?
When character design is mentioned, Nighthawk gets accolades for his "new" costume; and despite decades of character development he never reached recognizable status like other Marvel icons. Why is that?
They may have had loose origins as the Titans Three guest starring in the Sub-Mariner, but ended up with some other interesting characters all their own. Do you like the headlining characters like Dr. Strange and the Hulk or do you prefer Hellcat, Nighthawk, Red Guardian, Gargoyle, and the rest? Why is that?
Personally I was less interested in the revamped team toward the end of the run. I saw it as an outlet to capitalize on unused X-Men characters, and despite liking the Beast, Angel, and Moondragon, the new bunch did not have the same charisma in my eyes. But in the 1990s when it was hinted at in Namor and The Incredible Hulk books that there was going to be a reunion of the originals, I was all on board. Just the thought of the band getting back together had me eager even with the recent character developments for those core heroes.
I have to admit that I abhorred The Secret Defenders; it had a 1990's era vibe of weak stories with a constantly changing cast including the latest hot character. On the other hand, I much appreciated the short-lived Kurt Busiek and Erik Larson version of the team. Although it did not seem as weighty as the original, it had a vibrant sense of humor that I enjoyed. It was true to its roots while being modern.
What is it about the Defenders that keeps them down? Or am I looking at it from the wrong perspective? I definitely have a nostalgic feel for this team but what do you think? Defend the Defenders today! What were your favorite arcs? Who were your favorite writers and artists? Did you think the book pushed boundaries too far? Is it a classic title or not? What went right and what went wrong?
We’d like to hear from you today so please comment if you have anything to say in support of the defense.
18 comments:
First of all, it's not "magician," it's "dumb magician." Get it straight, man...
Otherwise: yep, also a Defenders fan here.
I think the best stories are the first appearances in Marvel Feature up to around issue #50, and inside that sweep of issues, my personal favorites are the runs by Len Wein and Steve Gerber. What I like most about that era is that besides the core line-up of Hulk, Dumb Magi---, er. Dr. Strange, Valkyrie and later Nighthawk, a number of characters would make guest appearances for a few issues, like Power Man, the Thing, Yellowjacket and Red Guardian (I liked her in particular, and wished she had stayed on to become a regular). And, of course, just the unusual - for mainstream superhero comics - stories. Gerber really excelled in that latter department, I think.
Even after that period, though, it was still a solidly entertaining series - up to about the 100th issue. My interest started to wane after that, but what really killed it for me was when, as you noted, it became a sort of dumping ground for unused X-men. That's when I entirely stopped reading the book.
Also, never knew about the later series written Busiek - that's got me really interested.
I recently decided to sell my comics that have been in my attic since I stopped collecting at 14. It is funny that although I obviously enjoy Marvel and those terrific stories, I was surprised that I had no physical attachment for these old books. So selling them is quite easy.
I was also amazed how many Defenders books I have, and to be honest, I cannot recall even reading them, though I surely had.
I suspect I am not alone in forgetting these mostly completely forgettable stories.
Yoyo
Geez.. such a HUGE topic... and a busy day for me to boot. Sheesh.
I guess in a few words, the Defenders were my favorite under-dog team, which spawned more team books like the Invaders, Champions, Guardians, etc.. So I'm supposing that's the sincerest form of flattery.
My fav years were the first couple with Englehart, Wein and Gerber. Sal certainly had the best art for them (the first few issues were a tad shaky with Trimpe and others..). Later with other artists, I typically put the book back on the rack. It was Sal's renditions that were best for me.
I don't know if it was sales or not, but the gueststars were nice to have and added to the non-team approach.., no stodgy bylaws, etc like the Avengers. Just simply, 'come for an issue or two'. Love having Yellowjacket with them, seemed like a near-comfortable fit. Hawkeye was a natural, so it's a shame he left after the '73 Avengers clash.
Sooooo much more to say, but I must dash. Ciao.
My favourite era (because it happened to be when I was picking them up off the stands) started around the Six-Fingered Hand arc that culminated in the 100th issue. I really liked the demonic angle, with characters like Son of Satan, Devil-Slayer and Gargoyle, who were all new and interesting to me.
Then I drifted back when they fought the Squadron Supreme. They had now added Beast, Vision and Scarlet Witch to the team. And in issue #113 they absolutely DESTROYED the Squadron, which I found oddly satisfying and cool.
The roster was pretty incredible: Hulk, Dr. Strange, Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer (right there more powerful than most teams), plus Valkyrie, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Son of Satan, Nighthawk, Beast...that group could blow most Avengers rosters out of the water!
(best part of that issue was Amphibian tackling Namor into some water and boasting "You're in my element now!" Then he gets creamed. Funny.)
Like others here, I was less interested with the "New" Defenders teaming of Iceman, Angel and Beast running things. I really liked the supernatural players the most.
So, yes, never a regular purchase, but the Defenders were a great book to have around and check out once in a while...
-david p.
I'm here to defend!
Team books have always been a draw and the Defenders are not excluded from that .
I collected them regularly from '75 to '80. I liked the story arcs involving the Headmen, Nebulon, Brotherhood of Badoon all by Gerber and Buscema.
My absolute favorite story was the Kraft, Giffen "Who Remembers Scorpio?" what an ending!
Loved the "woman power" in some issues when you got Hellcat, Red Guardian, Valkyrie and even Clea.
I was a pretty regular reader of the Defenders through about the first 50 issues and Annual #1. Like others, I didn't follow Dr. Strange or the Hulk in their individual mags, but really liked them together on the Defenders. I also thought the book's strength was in the open line-up concept, where anyone from Son of Satan to Yellowjacket could show up for an adventure.
The mainstay of Valkyrie and Nighthawk gave the book a continuity that somehow kept it floating through the changing non-members and the fact that they had no recurring villains.
Just Bronze Age fun -- solid memories of the first few years of the book!
Doug
I too shall defend the Defenders! Started buying the book with the Nebulon story in issue 13-14, and kept it up until issue 100. Absolutely loved Gerber's stint on the book, and enjoyed the Kraft/ Hannigan era too. As others have noted, the 'non-team' aspect allowed for many guests, who theoretically could be called Defenders as there was no formality anyway. So Cage, Yellowjacket, Daredevil, Spidey and even Howard the Duck could claim 'membership'.
Never saw any of the later incarnations of the book, with one exception. I did pick up the 5 issue series by Giffen from about 2005. It featured the original lineup, with plenty of humor and a bit more adult approach. Still fun.
I liked the Defenders, though I didn't read them religiously at the time. I liked the frequent guest stars and the sometimes heavy hitter villains they faced: Zodiac, Wrecking Crew, Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, Nebulon.
I liked the friendship between Valkyrie and Hellcat; I thought it was very natural. I wasn't a huge fan of the later stories, especially the Peter Gillis run (though I did kinda like Gargoyle).
Ugh, sorry, but I'll have to come up on the opposite side today in that I hated the Defenders back in the day, and this despite really trying to like them.
I think that I was just so used to seeing Hulk, Surfer, Strange, and Namor not just as solo characters, but as solo characters for reasons which went almost to the core of their identities, that the whole concept of them teaming up seemed very, very forced. So the whole concept of the "non-team" appeared like a flimsy, superficial cover for getting another team mag in the rack. Villains like Xemnu (a mouthless plush toy? Really?) didn't help, either. Having them come together only at times might seem like a novel strategy, but it's a risky one as well. It didn't end up working for Byrne with Alpha Flight, and I don't think it worked here either.
I kinda liked Nighthawk, but he seemed to be dismissed as a Batman knock off by a lot of folks. As for Valkyrie, I'd have loved to have seen more of her as I think there's still a lot of good stories to be had. (Why have Jane Foster as Thor, when you have Valkyrie to step up?) Red Guardian was another waste. Having her shack up with Sergei seems like another lost opportunity. But Gargoyle was the deal breaker for me in the later line-up. I could barely take Etrigan, much less an imitation.
Lest this seem too much like a rant or troll (which is truly not my intent). The Scorpio story line and art were and are among my favorites. I have Defenders #50 in a case hanging on my wall. My original copy was coverless and falling apart way back then, but I didn't care, because I could remove that two-page spread and hang it without feeling bad!
I've gotten a bit softer on the team and am picking up some issues now, but at the time I thought they were terrible.
Let the sparagmos commence, and
Cheers to all
I'll follow Selenarch more /less.
I found the concept cool. The Marvel Feature 1 cover drew me in and I plopped a quarter and enjoyed the issue (as I recall 47 years later)!
But, I never really thought of the 3 as being regularly occurring teammates, for the same reason (I assume) that Hulk was written out of the Avengers: they were difficult personalities and solo characters. I don't think I bought but a handful of their issues after MF 1.
If I was king of the world, those 3 Defenders would have been an irregularly occurring event like a Summer Annual, rather than forced into a monthly relationship, and thus keeping it fresh.
Thanks for the comments so far everybody. Good, bad, or otherwise we do appreciate the dialogue.
To Yoyo, Selenarch, CH47 and any others that were not enamored with the Defenders - I get it. I honestly understand your position even though I hold the opposite view. And I'd like to hear your comments on the below points.
Here is how I see the book. The whole is much better than the sum of the parts - significantly so. In fact some (many) individual issues are painfully mediocre. I think a few commentators alluded to the unremarkable or unmemorable stories. I think that is actually true; how remarkable are the Plantman, Mandrill, or "one-off mystic villain" arcs? Heck, I cannot even remember the story when looking at some covers. Yet, the whole weird fabric and feel that is woven over the course of the book is so different than anything else. It often feels like a novel to me with evolving depth and change in characters, with relationships ebbing and flowing. Didn't the book just seem creepy, philosophical, strange, and warped sometimes? That was something that developed differently than other books. Even the stiffness of the art (Perlin) supported that unusual milieu. And in retrospect I liked it.
Secondly, while I did enjoy Namor and felt he was consistent to his solo adventures the Hulk and Strange seemed like "new" characters to me. The Hulk was more of a team player than he previously seemed. He'd complain about "birdnose" and "dumb magician" ( as Edo pointed out) but he was suddenly part of a family. Nighthawk, Valkyrie, and Hellcat might have been where my interest pointed but the book would not have been the same without the "friendly, familial, Hulk". He was like the young nephew that likes to tag along, gets bored and frustrated sometimes, but loves coming back for more interaction. He was different and I think it helped shape my appreciation for the character. The Defenders could not exist without THAT Hulk. I don't even remember if Banner ever appeared; the Hulk was so omnipresent.
And Strange seemed like a sage but put-upon leader. I liked that.
All together I found it fascinating. Many individual books - meh! What do you think?
I will put simply. Defenders > Avengers.
I love this book basically up through #100, and it is from somewhere in the 60s to about 115 that I am most familiar with. I dropped the book quickly in the "new" Defenders era. They lose their charm.
Defenders was also the kind of book I found cheap at flea markets back then, so despite being an 80s comics kids, I remember getting stack of Defenders from the 70s for 10 cents or a quarter a piece (reading copies of course, but I've never been a speculator). Anyway, that means in my formative years I was more familiar with their adventures than those of the Avengers.
For fans of the Defenders, I HIGHLY recommend the podcast "Titan Up the Defense," which is my favorite podcast, bar none. It alternates weeks between New Teen Titans and Defenders, but covers each and every issue (including the Marvel Premeire issues and the Giant-Size ones). If you don't like DC you can skip the off weak. ;)
Can't argue too much with the nay-sayers in some respects. As you noted, Marti, some individual issues were pretty forgettable. And the artwork left me wanting, sometimes. But I enjoyed the rather odd, 'outsider' characters that seemed to fill the book. Particularly Valkyrie, Hellcat, and Nighthawk. That, and the odd, 'outsider' supporting characters - Dollar Bill, Ledge, the Elf, and that poor family whose home the Hulk kept destroying.
Speaking of Jade Jaws, I'd love to hear a few thoughts about Defenders Hulk from our buddy HB...
Finally, I'd give the book a 'thumbs up' if for no other reason than the Headmen story. The sheer strangeness was truly emblematic of Bronze Age Marvel. Gerber at his most outrageous.
I see your point Martinex, and I think you've hit the crux of my objection. It really was the Hulk being there that felt the most wrong. The Surfer comes in a close second. (Namor was one of the Invaders, so I knew he could be a team player). The Hulk I really enjoyed was the Mantlo/Buscema Hulk. That Hulk wandered around this deliriously surreal desert landscape where aliens dropped out of the sky, and strange creatures popped up out of the ground. It was dotted with secret government bases and characters whose origins you were never quite sure about. It was an environment which could drive the most disciplined, like "Thunderbolt" Ross and Glenn Talbot, insane with frustration, jealousy, and helplessness. The naivete of the Hulk, like a child's, is what enables him to cross from one end of this desert to another relatively unscathed but, ultimately, alone. To see him in a city, munching hotdogs with team-mates, accepting a mission or task, and then being able and willing to follow a plan in cooperation with others for more than an single issue was just a bridge too far for me. It was an interpretation of the character that somehow diminished him, I thought. Yet sometimes admittedly it did work, though. But those moments seemed rare, and never lasted. (A lot of that with some nuances I'd say goes for the Surfer as well.)
I liked the Defenders more without them. More Nighthawk, Hellcat, Valkyrie, and Moon Knight. They were all kind of misfits but with some great interactions. But sadly in the end, it was all too uneven for me to get invested in.
I will agree with Marti, Red, AND Selenarch...
There is something alluring about the Defenders in spite of very mediocre stories and art at times.
But I feel like Selenarch that, Hulk, lacking a thimble's worth of intelligence, just can't appear issue after issue in a team role.
Which leads me back to my "if I were king" thoughts that these 3 guys would have made a brilliant recurring Summer annual. Beyond that I just never felt they were plausible in a recurring monthly team role.
So... that is not the most decisive of positions but it's how I see it, LOL.
Selenarch and CH47 - I hear you. I do have to look at the Hulk a little differently in the Defenders - like a different character (or perhaps one that finally found a place he fit in).
Edo - I should have mentioned that following Busiek's Defenders run, he wrote a book called The Order. It was essentially a story in which the Defenders (Hulk, Silver Surfer, Dr Strange and Namor) decide to take over the world and Nighthawk and crew have to figure it out and stop them. Fantastic art in that book as well. It's a six issue mini from 2002 and it focuses on the antagonistic dark side of those four heavyweights. It is worth a look.
And speaking of antagonistic anti-heroes... join us tomorrow for even more fun that branches off directly from today's topic in a new Quarter Bin.
Cheers all!
Martinex, yeah, I checked the GCD and then Lone Star comics after reading the post (and commenting) and saw that Busiek's Defenders segued into The Order. Again, it all looks really intriguing, and I'm a bit frustrated that these issues were never collected and reprinted (which makes it easier, and usually cheaper, for me to acquire).
And I see Osvaldo has seconded my recommendation (made to Redartz last week) of Titan Up the Defense - not my favorite podcast, but oh-so-entertaining. Definitely worth the weekly listen.
So Edo, which is your favorite podcast?
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