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15 comments:
Hi All!
I started reading comics in 1970-197, when I was 10. I grew up on Stan's Soap Box, the Mighty Marvel Checklist, two pages of letters, and Gwen Stacey.
All of that more/less disappeared, or started disappearing, within a few years. And b/c of that I really lost interest (I was actually really bothered about Gwen's death).
Yet, I realize many of you came along a good 5 - 10 years later and did not experience those transitions.
So my general question is, and I don't know how to put it in a smart way other than bluntly, "Did you care that Gwen Stacey died, if you started reading after that point?"
Or, if you started reading earlier in the 70s like me, did the loss of the aforementioned things bother you like it bothered me?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Charlie, good question..
I too started around early 1973, and ASM 125 was my 'first newsstand purchase' of comics, and I was quite intrigued almost immediately about the letters pages all filled with Gwen's death, not to mention on the cover, Spidey happened to be yellin', 'Not Like Gwen...!!'
Luckily a local department store had those 3comics-in-a-bag for sale, so I was able to snag issues, 122-124, just missing ish 121. I found it hard to believe that sooo many folks were so aghast with the death enough to all right in.
(..'course back then as a 10yr old, didn't think there was editorial constraint on exactly WHICH letters were published..)
To me it took Spidey to an entirely new level.., a new personal level, with both Conway writing and the Romita (or Kane) art. As much as Englehart brought Cap through his personal ordeal just after that time, Conway/Romita carved out an entirely new reason to care. AND it carried over into MTU.., so it didn't seem like a 'single-title development'.
Then add the entire Tony-Pepper-Happy mix in Ironman, Swordsman/Mantis, and Reed-Sue's separation in FF..? The MU suddenly didn't seem all that separate from my Mom's soap operas.
Looking back, it seemed as though the planets all aligned and all those storylines suddenly dove-tailed into a very emotional year.
"We Had Joy, We Had Fun, We Had Seasons In The Sun..."
Great question!
Oddly enough my first Spider-Man mag was #144 when Gwen shows up at the end of the comic to Peter's astonishment.
I had no clue of her relevancy at the time but as that story continued understood what she meant to him.
So to answer your question "yes" I cared, as she was an integral part of the clone saga. My first Spider-Man story arc.
Sorry, meant to type "the death enough to write in..", hadn't had my coffee yet.
Again, Marvel Zuvembie heartstrings were definitely being yanked in every direction.
It was a very warm time for reflecting over love and loss.
I always thought it was a mistake to kill Gwen Stacy. Yes, it was "shocking" and unexpected, and daring, and yatta, yatta, yatta, but it was also dark and depressing and really left a permanent dark cloud over Spider-Man / Peter Parker. It really changed the tone of the character (and all of his books). It transformed Spidey / Peter from a fun, light-hearted character with some everyday problems (like school, work, money, and girl troubles) into a character that was much more tragic and sad.
Peter Parker was supposed to be the "regular guy" superhero, with regular guy problems, that we the readers could all identify with. In contrast to someone like Bruce Wayne, who is wealthy but also tragically lost his parents at a young age. Peter had also lost his parents as a kid, and then his uncle was murdered, and then his girlfriends father was killed, so Peter had his share of tragedy as well.
But, to then to have the love of his life murdered right in front of him (by his arch enemy no less) was going a little too far down the rabbit hole, IMO. I mean not many people have that much tragedy in befall them by the time they are 20 years old. After losing so many of his loved ones prematurely, Peter would have already been feeling like the universe had it in for him, and I think Gwen's death would have pushed him over the edge into a depression that he would have never fully recovered from.
Well, I came into comics and Spider-man (those two things were simultaneous) about 2 years after Gwen's death. I read it when it was reprinted in Marvel Tales a few years later. And it was occasionally referenced in later Spider-man stories, so I understood it's importance as a major, formative event in Spider-man's life. If, when you say "care," you mean should Gwen have stayed alive, then I'd have to say no. I always liked MJ better (to me she is to Peter as Lois Lane is to Superman).
I sort of agree with you William, all good points raised.
But Spiderman as super-hero was birthed out of neglecting to stop a criminal who killed his Uncle Ben...
Hence, the approach was always the 'everyman-troubles' approach, but the inception started with a violent death which he blames himself for. This was just another death.., essentially because of a crazed madman consumed with defeating Parker's costumed identity.
You can all make the case for Captain Stacey, but it wasn't as personal as his Uncle Ben, nor now Gwen.
Sorry, didn't mean to type 'just another death', but it was meant as another death which further defined (reinforced..?) the nature of Spidey..?
I dunno, perhaps others can wax more Marvel Zuvembie eloquence than I... :)
Okay, True Confessions time:
If I look back at the dots, I can "draw" a picture that I barely remember. (Again, that ol "never wrote anything down" bites me in my derriere). My first Spider-Man was a coverless 114, Spider-Man caught in the middle of a Doc Ock - Hammerhead gang war. I don't know how many times I read that issue but it did lead me to my local convenience store for more Spider-Man. It was there that I purchased 121 & 123. I missed 122. All of this was detailed previously. My introduction, more or less, to Spider-Man was Gwen's death. At his heart, Spider-Man is a character directly shaped by "death". Uncle Ben's (the reason he's Spider-Man), Captain Stacy's (the reason he's hounded by the police), Gwen's (Spider-Man directly impacting Peter's life) and then the death of Norman Osborn. As I looked back at those issues/events, I realize how they were handled to be a most natural part of Parker's life. There are things that happen. No matter how powerful we may be, or feel we are, sometimes we are powerless to stop them. How we handle ourselves is our strength. I can't say I learned that in my first reading, but I did in many subsequent ones...
Final word... I don't think "they" have been able to handle those events "correctly" in any of the Cinematic Spider-Mans.
(I really love you baby
I love what you've got
Let's get together, we can
Get hot
No more tomorrow, baby
Time is today
Girl, I can make you feel
Okay
No place for hidin' baby
No place to run
You pull the trigger of my
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
You can't forget me baby
Don't try to lie
You'll never leave me, mama
So don't try
I'll be a gambler, baby
Lay down the bet
We get together, mama
You'll sweat
No place for hidin' baby
No place to run
You pull the trigger of my
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
Love gun, love gun
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
Love gun, (love gun)
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
Love gun, (love gun), love gun
Love gun, (love gun)
Love gun, (love gun)
Love gun, (love gun)
Love gun... ).
Great topic, Charlie, and excellent comments, everyone.
I first started reading Spider-man as a kid, about issue 60. The last issue I read before departing to Archie Comics was 90, with Captain Stacy's death. That really hit me as a 9 year old. So, I was quite familiar with Gwen and their relationship. By the time I returned to the Marvel fold, with Spidey 130, she was gone.
I was staggered by that, but at the same time was very impressed by the growth in MJ's character. I came to prefer MJ, accepting Gwen's loss as another tragic step in Peter's evolution.
In short, I felt the pain, but was caught up by the depth and quality of Marvel's publications. And that same depth and quality kept me hooked for many years...
Well, I was born in 1972, so the original story wasn't on my radar. But I did read a reprint of it later in Marvel Tales (in 1978, I think) and I felt bad about Gwen dying, but it didn't make a huge impact on me. (When I first started reading comics, around 1977, I was reading Marvel Tales, Amazing and Spectacular; but I didn't realize Marvel Tales was reprints, so I wondered why Gwen was in some stories and not others.)
But I've always been more of an MJ fan anyway, so I'm glad things happened the way they did. Stan had basically written Gwen into a corner; she hated Spider-Man (because she blamed him for her father's death), so how could she and Peter ever get married or even have a long-lasting relationship? He'd either have to hide his secret from her (not feasible if they're living together) or tell her, in which case she'd have freaked out and dumped him. The way Gwen had been written up to that point left nowhere for the relationship to go. MJ on the other hand had always been written as a flake, which left room for character growth. Conway (and later writers) gave her depth that made her the perfect companion for Peter AND Spidey ... at least in my opinion.
Hiya,
Well, I did get that book when it came out and, for myself, it was a shocker. I remember being convinced that there was going to be some sort of resolution with the next issue where it was all a big misunderstanding.
Guess not.
I think it was more disturbing for me because that issue came out shortly after I had been able to start purchasing Marvel comics after a prolonged drought caused by distribution changes. I had found a new store and was able to get back issues from associates. It had also reached the point where Gwen had made her first appearance in the reprint books as well. Point of discussion, Lee and Ditko's original take on her was 'uber-you-know-what'. Anyway I was as fond of the character as I think I could have been.
But I remember thinking that it was a change of pace for Marvel and one that I wasn't too comfortable with. Spidey incriminates himself in regards to Gwen's death, the cops pull their guns, yada yada yada. Conway just didn't have as light of touch as Lee when it came to story telling. How old was he when he wrote this story? Nineteen? Twenty?
In the end it was just too much for me. I kept buying the comics until the Gwen clone showed up but it really fell on the radar as something I was going to pursue. I never really picked up the book again until Roger Stern took over several years later.
So for me I guess you could say it was a turning point for me, probably not the one Marvel had intended.
Seeya,
pfgavigan
Thanks all for your thoughts and experiences! As I read the last comment from PF I recalled how I too thought, "There will be a resolution in the next issue. It's all a big misunderstanding." Alas that wasn't the case... it really was a funeral for a friend.
david_b, After re-reading my post it came off a little more heavy handed than I intended. The death of Gwen didn't really make Spider-Man a darker, sadder character per se. A couple of issues after the "incident" Spidey basically returned to his wise-cracking self, and over the the next few years Gwen was kind of forgotten for the most part, but her death still had a long lasting effect on the character that is still felt to this day.
I didn't even read those issues until a few years after they originally came out (I was too young then), but I had been regularly reading Marvel Tales (which as we all know featured back issues of Spider-Man), so I was fully aware of who Gwen Stacy was by the time I read the events of issues #121-122. So, it had a similar effect on me as if I had read it when it was originally published.
I'll never forget reading the preceding story that ran in ASM #119-120, where Spider-Man fights the Hulk. That was such a fun tale, and then the very next issue Spidey's whole world is totally decimated. Which was not very fun to me at all. It depressed me pretty good as a kid, and it was hard to enjoy reading Spider-Man for a time after that. So, for me it wasn't really what I would call a "good story" or a story that I cared for very much.
i don't recall how i knew Gwen died. I didn't have the issues when it happened so I'm not sure how I picked up on that particular info but it was probably from an editorial note somewhere along the way. I was aware who Gwen was because I had many Spidey issues between #60 and 90 but them a big gap.
I finally got the "full" story in the What If issue What If Gwen had Lived...
I have to say (and I may be amongst only a few here) that I like Mary Jane but I never totally warmed to the character. In many issues they depicted her as flighty and unreliable. Because comics are periodicals and I skipped around I rarely saw the episodes in which she was serious and caring. So unfortunately the flighty attributes stuck with me as her major characterization.
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