QUESTION 1: What was the worst comic series, or a less-than-stellar run of a series, that you collected? What made you collect a "bad" book? What did you like about it? And was it really as bad as people think, or do you still see something worth recommending in the predominantly criticized run? (And feel free to comment on the below selections as well).
QUESTION 2: What did you learn from a comic book that you still store as reference today? History? Language? Geography? It is all fair game.
25 comments:
1. Well just about every Atlas/Seaboard title- Cougar, Brute, Destructor, Iron Jaw, Phoenix, Scorpion, Tiger-Man, Wulf. Granted no title went more than 3 or 4 issues. I think the draw was I could start from issue #1, from the ground floor so to speak. And hey I actually got into them.
Regarding the runs listed, I own an original art page from Team America thank you very much :-)
2. Hmm, tough to pinpoint.
Some language for sure, thanks to Dr. Doom mostly- cretin, cur. dolt...don't really use them much though doesn't seem to come up in conversation.
1. Worst comics I collected were Dazzler and Punisher. I own some valuable comics, but I generally bought comics for fun, not as an investment. If I could get 10 back issues that featured Hulk vs. Abomination for the price of 1 issue of X-Men, that's what I'd buy.
But I got suckered into believing the hype on Dazzler's 1981 series. I was 9 when #1 was published and was naive enough to believe the series would be valuable. It featured lackluster art, stories that weren't great and lots of gratuitous panels of Alison Blare in underwear. I quit after 8 issues.
The Punisher series I mention was the 1987 series. Punisher was a "hot" character at the time but not a character I was ever crazy about. So I figured his series would be valuable. It was boring, mostly just Punisher shooting generic gangsters and/or drug dealers of the month. I bought the first 20 or so before I got wise.
2. The first thing that comes to mind is a mention of the Dachau nazi death camp, which was mentioned in Avengers #209. The Avengers are traveling through time and end up at the camp. I'd never heard of Dachau until then.
All respect to Killraven, but I have collected all the Atlas titles, save the last Debbi's which are hard to come by due to the low print runs. Destructor with Ditko art is truly sublime in my opinion. I think that Brute and Demon Slayer, courtesy of Chaykin, even made it back to the Marvel fold eventually.
As for bad series, I picked up one from DC called "Zodiac" for about 25 cents a book and feel I overpaid. I read two issues and truly felt they weren't worth the paper.
For roughly the same price, I also collected some Shogun Warriors and a good bunch of other titles (CrossGen ... *cough*). Kinda wondering if "The 'Nam" and "GI Joe" don't fall in this as well.
Hey Selenarch, I absolutely recommend the Atlas mags. I listed them because I think most people associate Atlas as a bust as a whole, stories and art included. Glad to meet another fan!
And did you mean the Vicki series, or did I miss one?
Hey, Killraven! No, yes, Vicki! I have 1 and 2, I think, but the last issue(s?) is a prize.
1. As a very young reader, I wanted to like the Gold Key "Dark Shadows" comic, as I was one of those kids who ran home from grade school to watch Barnabas Collins every afternoon. Unfortunately, it was never what I wanted it to be. Perhaps now I would enjoy it, since I was probably not the target audience at the time.
I don't agree with your including the Thing's solo title in this listing. I'm a huge fan of the Fantastic Four and of the Thing in particular. I enjoyed John Byrne's writing on this title.
2. I learned an above average vocabulary, thanks to writers like Stan Lee and Roy Thomas!
Disneymarvel, I actually think there can be arguments made for all of the runs depicted (some more so than others - sure). I think the Thing was not Byrne's greatest outing but I did like Ben being thrust into the role of "lead" and "leader". Unfortunately I think the lack of a good and interesting supporting cast hurt after a while. And unfortunately it carried a residue of Secret Wars along with it.
Team America stories were pretty bad. But honestly the book had some sharp covers.
US1 is really bizarre. Almost worth a look just for how strange and campy it is. The hero has a plate in his head that picks up CB radio. He is pursued by a madman for in a blimp. And somehow they had Michael Golden create the covers.
And Star Hunters was really out there. Characters banished from Earth to find the reason for existence and cursed if they returned to Earth to some horrible implanted mutation.
On many of these the execution of a reasonable idea was messed up; on others the initial idea was odd. So much is relative.
I do think the Thing had potential seriously unrecognized.
This has come up several times in the past (at the BAB especially), but - Team America. Had the whole run back in the day; I diligently collected it every month, reading each issue once and then never opening them again. To this day, I can't really explain why I was so committed to this, because it was a largely uninteresting series with unremarkable characters and generally lackluster art; and I was not into cycle racing or motor sports, either. I believe I just felt sort of obligated once I bought the first issue.
As to the second question, like others, I learned a lot of vocabulary, and I'm pretty sure it was in comics like the Invaders that I first saw the term "Axis" used to describe the 'bad guys' in World War 2.
Edo I did the same thing. I saw Team America in Captain America (I think that issue came out first if I recall correctly). It was almost painful to read the TA issues but I kept doing it. The character Wolf really annoyed me. Everybody was so stereotypically one note ... the leader Honcho, the rich kid Reddy, ugh. But again the covers were good. The fact that they made them into mutants later is just icing on the cake. I believe that the series emerged from a failed toy line but I am not sure. I like to joke about it but I have all twelve issues bagged and boarded somewhere. They are probably the most mint comics I have because they were touched only once.
Regarding things I learned ... I learned the reason for the two shades of stone on the Washington Monument from Dennis the Menace. I also learned what the Hawaiian food poi was from DtM. I learned a fair amount (although twisted) Norse mythology from Thor. And I learned that biochemistry is a particularly underrated career choice from Marvel comics in general.
1. It seems there were a lot of books back in the day that I started reading from the first issue and just kept on buying them, even though I didn't enjoy them very much.
Some examples that come to mind are "Alien Legion", "Omega Men", "Spawn", and "The New Mutants" to name but a few. Most of those I quit liking pretty early on but I just kept buying them out of habit. The one I stuck with the longest was New Mutants. That book really took a downturn for me when Bill Sienkiewicz starting handing the artwork. I thought his weird (almost abstract) art style was not at all suited to mainstream comics. But I still bought that book for years until I finally realized that I didn't enjoy it.
I never read any of the titles you have pictured except for The Thing, and I thought that book wasn't too bad. It wasn't as good as Marvel Two-In-One, but it definitely wasn't the worst comic series I ever read.
2. What I learned from reading comics was mostly how to pronounce a lot of words I may not have otherwise encountered at such a young age. Words such as omnipotent, Intangible, proportionate, omnipresent, celestial, catastrophic, intergalactic, invulnerable, and etc. etc. add infinitum. I also learned the meaning of these and many other words.
As a result I was reading at a college level in 7th grade. My reading skill and vocabulary is on par (or better than) my wife's, who is an avid reader of "real" books, and who was a communications major at college.
I've also learned quite a bit about history, mythology, and literature from reading comics as well.
And people say that comics are mindless entertainment.
What is funny William is that I am fairly certain I can guess in what context you saw those words... intangible in regards to the Vision, proportionate in relation to Spider-Man's strength, omnipotent for Odin molecule Man the Beyonder and others, etc.
1) I remember liking Jack of Hearts in his team-ups with Spider-Man, but the Jack of Hearts mini-series was boring; I guess Spidey was "carrying" him. I also liked Power Girl in All-Star Comics, but when I read her first solo story in Showcase 97-99 it was disappointing (except for the art).
2) Like most people here, I think my vocabulary was expanded by reading comics. I also learned a lot of historical facts, especially from WW2 comics like Sgt. Rock or All-Star Squadron.
Martinex, those guest appearances in Capt. America and New Mutants are probably the best Team America stories - even though I'll readily admit that declaring them mutants was really a stretch.
William, totally agree with you about Sienkiewicz on New Mutants. I generally like his art, but he was totally unsuited to the title. One thing the preceding artist, Sal Buscema, did quite well was draw them to actually look like teens of various ages. Sienkiewicz made them all look like, at best, college students. Plus, Claremont seemed to adjust his storytelling to Sienkiewicz's style, making the stories more 'edgy' and 'dark,' which didn't really work for me on that series.
By the way, interesting that you note that you learned how to pronounce words thanks to comics. That wasn't always the case for me - I learned what a lot of words meant, but often didn't know how to pronounce them correctly (one example that comes to mind is 'awry.' Saw it in a comic, figured out what it meant, but for the longest time, until somewhere in my teens, I thought it was pronounced 'awe-ree').
I also question a few of the selections for 'bad' or questionable comics to collect; others here mentioned that the Thing was a pretty solid series, and I know from internet hearsay that there's quite a few fans of both Amethyst (especially) and Star Hunters - I actually wouldn't mind reading the latter one, because if nothing there's some really nice art by Don Newton.
I bought and subscribed to X-FACTOR from the beginning and stayed with it for years and years. I don't think I can say that I ever liked the book very much, beyond a few moments.
SKULL THE SLAYER-- seemed so edgy/out-there/cool to my youngster self. But it was so bad-- and disjointed and made no earthly sense at all.
WEREWOLF BY NIGHT- I picked it up with issue #18, and had acquired just a few of the previous ones (plus the Marvel Spotlight appearances) from my buddy. Don Perlin had already taken over as the artist. The book was awful. Just consistently awful. But I had pronounced it as one of my favorites at that point, so I stuck with it to the bitter, bitter end in order to preserve my. . . honor.
Remember when GHOST RIDER was a "hot" book again in the early/mid 90's? When he was just, like, the lost bike-ridin' demon w/out an actual host? I bought it for about a year, and I don't think I ever read the later issues.
Ugh-- the FOOLKILLER maxi-series. I mean, so many things you just seem to buy because you get in the habit of buying them, and then you don't want to "miss" something, etc, etc. Truly-- it has to be a diagnosable addiction, I would think.
The flip side of this coin, of course (which we've probably talked about) are series that you loved (or at least like a lot) that you felt like you were the ONLY person reading them. . . that then died and fell into obscurity. DP7; QUASAR; OMEGA MEN; Byrne's DOOM PATROL reboot; the 2nd volume of ALPHA FLIGHT (not the satirical one); pretty much all of the M2 Universe titles. . .
HB
Ooo--PS- I also was quite fond of the Thing's series-!
HB (again)
One man's "bad" is another man's treasure. That's what I really wanted to understand. I think in comics that can definitely be true. I posted Star Hunters because it is a borderline attempt in my eyes. It had some significant 70s vibes in it and for some reason I really dislike the main protagonist, Donovan Flint. Just the name seems so over the top. I actually was rooting for him to mutate; that is probably not good. And having the enemy named the Corporation seemed cliche. Those are just little things though. It only lasted 9 issues and it left everything hanging. But there is also part of me that still thinks it had a cool concept - a team coerced to find the reason for man's existence framed in a battle between good and evil.
And I still contend that the Thing's solo book is not in the upper echelon of titles. Seriously, it could have been helped if they worked in "Thing ring do your thing!" Put it this way, when people talk about John Byrne's better work, how often do they mention The Thing? Now is Byrne's worst work above average in general ... maybe.
HB I so wanted both X-Factor and Werewolf By Night to be great. I thought X -Factor actually was extremely good when the team was Havok, Quicksilver, Polaris, Strongman and Rahne. Peter David had a great run. But the early stuff with the original X-Men as mutant hunters was pretty convoluted and weak. WWBN was consistently hampered by poor art - but at least it gave us Moon Knight.
Regarding pronunciation, my brother and I laughed so hard when my mom ( who was perusing our comics) read AKA as "ah-Kah". I still hear that in my head when I read AKA.
It somehow reminds me that there were some great Ka-Zar stories and some really tepid ones.
Cheers all. Thanks for conversing. I apologize if I wasn't clear in what I was driving at in "bad". It could be anything from West Coast Avengers by Englehart and Milgrom to Kickers Inc. but undoubtedly there is still something fun or memorable in each.
And it's ok if I'm the only Thing non-fan. Ha ha.
I think Charlie Horse 47 posted some very interesting comments on this topic down in the independents day post a couple of days ago. I cannot reroute it (yet) so you may want to take a gander at the comment there.
HB, you beat me to the punch on "Skull the Slayer". I followed it religiously, dinosaur fan I was, but soon regretted it. Liked the cover to the first issue, though.
Marti- I'm with you, I was less than thrilled with Ben Grimm's solo book. I hoped for so much more than it seemed to offer.
Another title I bought but couldn't explain why: Kirby's 2001. The first half dozen issues all seemed like retellings of the first issue. Got tired of it really quick, but bought it anyway.
As for question 2, I credit comics with my verbose vocabulary. Also (as Charlie mentioned in his response on the Indie post) comics have lured me into a greater interest in history. And finally, as an artist, comics have surely inspired me visually. Every Eisner, Kubert or Buscema story is an art lesson...
Hi Gang!
Perhaps I'm off base or over-thinking this!
Answering the 2nd question, what I’ve learned from comics is one of the reasons I still read comics!
Maus – Gave me insight into the Holocaust, and perhaps more insightfully into Holocaust Survivors.
Golden Age WWII Comics – How our nation perceived the war, our enemies, our minorities; insight into propaganda…
1950s, 1960s UK Comics like “The Broons” and “Oor Wullie” - How post WWII UK perceived Americans, America, other Europeans.
Classics in Comic Form – There are some beautiful renderings of classics such as Dante’s “Divine Comedy” or “Abelard and Heloise” or “Beowulf.” (If anyone is aware of a comic version of “The Song of Roland” let me know!!!)
Lee/Kirby 1960s FF – How middle-aged American white guys might view women at that time.
Herge’s TinTin – How middle-aged European white men might view Russian Communism, Africans, Jews, etc. at that time.
Foster’s Prince Valiant – Man there is a whole lot of Dark Ages, Middle Ages research that Foster put into that Sunday strip (research done on sight in Europe just prior to WW II). This has been considered to be “the most beautiful comic ever produced.”
Answering the first question:
I’m luke warm on Marvel’s / Roy Thomas’s “The Iliad.” Something about it was too comic-ish for a classic work like The Iliad.
Classic’s Illustrated – I’ve read many of them, looking for inspiration to read the original, but no joy there. They aren’t really deeply enough written to inspire my interest.
CH47 you may have triggered some future topics with the comments around comics reflecting the perceptions of an era. I think there is a huge amount of truth in that. And it would be interesting to look back 100 years from now at our own views.
Regarding Classic's Illustrated, I always thought those comics best served storied the likes of Robert Louis Stevenson's "Treasure Island," "Kidnapped," and "Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde" and we're not so great on epics like "The Iliad" or even "A Tale of Two Cities". Maybe it was more suited for the less expansive or straightforward three act story. Thanks for reminding me of those. I used to check those out of the public library as a kid, and particularly liked "Frankenstein" and "The Invisible Man".
Also I know there was a graphic novel of the Song of Roland; I will have to try to find some reference as I never purchased it and barely recall details. There was also a teaching comic "Kid Beowulf and the Song of Roland" that I also think covered the epic poem. If I can find info I will share it.
BTW Martinex1, you were absolutely correct on the context of all those words. LOL
I learned that sunlight is 8 minutes old by the time it travels the 93 million miles to Earth (thank you Monica Rambeau).
MJ Watson used to say "ciao", which I read as "see-ayy-oh"
I just tweeted a few days ago that Byrne and Wilson on The Thing is an underrated classic (and I don't think people appreciate Ron Wilson's art nearly enough). Bad? No way!
I will one up all of you on Team America and admit I bought the whole series within the last two years (super cheap), just out of curiosity (though I haven't read it yet).
Sienkiewicz on New Mutants is among the best comics Marvel ever produced. Not sorry.
As for bad comics I stuck with, probably some of the New Universe stuff like Psi Hawk and Star Brand. I also stuck with Alpha Flight for much longer than I should have because it was "supposed to be" good.
Post a Comment