Martinex1: Let's kick off our manic Monday with a couple of comic book questions. They are not necessarily related (unless you can draw some of your own connections) so feel free to answer one or both.
QUESTION 1: Why wasn't Hercules a more popular character in the Marvel mythos? What do or don't you like about Marvel's Hercules?
QUESTION 2: We talk about the impact darker characters like the vengeance driven Punisher and the violent Wolverine had to comics approaching the modern age, but did Deadman, the Spectre, and the Phantom Stranger have a similar impact on DC much earlier as they appeared throughout the Bronze Age? If not who were DC's harbingers of a darker age?
18 comments:
Hercules was never a major character due to:
1. his archetype was already popular with Thor and there wasn't much difference between the two
2. he was always portrayed as more of an asshole than a hero
Yoyo
1. Marvel's Hercules always seemed like kind of a boring character to me when I was a kid. I guess it might have been because he wasn't that visually interesting. The loin cloth look didn't really scream superhero. While on the other hand Thor looked like the Marvel version of Superman. (Mostly blue costume with a flowing red cape). While Herc was like his lame cousin. LOL
2. I think Frank Miller was DC's harbinger of darkness back in the day. His "Dark Knight Returns" pretty much ushered in the era of grim and gritty that was quickly reinforced by Alan Moore's Watchmen. I never really cared for either of those stories because to me that was the beginning of the end of the kind of comics I enjoyed reading. Now pretty much all comics are written like DKR and Watchmen. (Which is why don't read them anymore).
I wish Hercules had been in his own series in the Bronze Age-- I like the character and seeing these covers makes me want to read his stories. The miniseries by Bob Layton was super, with action and humour. That's also where Herc is different than Thor, more humour.
John Buscema also seems like he got a kick drawing Herc. You can see it in the '80s Avengers series-- Herc looks more animated than many of the other characters. Buscema drew Herc for Dell back in 1959, and it's a sweet example of his pre-Marvel work: http://www.bigblogcomics.com/2010/08/hercules-in-four-color.html
Makes me wish Buscema hadn't left comics for those years in the early '60s.
I like the mystical nature of these dark DC characters, which makes them different from the claws and guns of Wolverine and Punisher. Deadman is the most relatable for me, as he starts as a real guy and gets thrown into a metaphysical existence. Either way, outstanding art by Aparo and Adams on these characters. Deadman has a great continuing story, Spectre good short stories, and Phantom Stranger I've read but can't remember any of the stories, so he comes in last place!
Back to Herc. He has an arrogance and lust for life, for women, wine and adventure. They're fun stories, and when he gets his comeuppance for too much arrogance, it seems deserved. Thor's punishments by Odin seem undeserved though--Odin just seems random and crazy.
Herc never, ever fit the rough model of pretty much all of Marvel's mainstream heroes and characters, if you think about it. There was no other identity/secret identity for him to relax into, nor was there a particular real-life aspect to him that made him easy to relate to or for that matter even very sympathetic. He made for a solidly amusing supporting character, but that was always about it for me. And, how do I put this, his existence in the old MU always struck me as sort of a creative cop-out. I mean, EVERY kid was familiar with Hercules already, so there was nothing inherently "Marvel" about him at all. It was like going to a restaurant and being served canned vegetables with your dinner. (Not sure if that metaphor is exactly apt-- I'm rather woozy with fatigue & sleep-deficit these days. . . heh. . . ) And for the most part, writers seemed to throw up their hands, as their efforts to make him "interesting" seemed to begin and end with shaving or growing his beard, and what degree of mortal/immortal & powered/unpowered Zeus may have left him at the moment. Kinda hard for a fan to really stay engaged with developments like that month after month. . .
Thoroughly enjoyed the Bob Layton minis, yup.
Oddly enough, in the horrid miasma that was the (well-and-largely forgotten) Timeslide/The Crossing era, there were some interesting seeds being planted with Herc that simply got erased with everything else going on at that point...
HB
HB brings up some good points about Herc and his accessibility to readers and his lack of secret ID. Perhaps that is why I liked the Layton series so much. Putting him in space with intergalactic adventures where people (or aliens) did not know him, opened him up for some characterization, emotion, and definitely humor. I don't think he's a Thor clone, although many aspects are redundant due to the myths, but in space not tied to Earth or Olympus opened up the storytelling for Herc.
The Spectre creeped me out. The penalties for the crimes seemed incredibly harsh, brutal, and sadistic. It was a strange mesh of crime fighting and dark eternal justice. I read that Joe Orlando was mugged and he used his disgust for criminals to shape the punishments in The Soectre books. That is shockingly similar to how it has been told that Frank Miller was mugged and it changed his use of Daredevil and Batman. I think the Spectre took it too far though sometimes torturing the thugs by changing them into candles or other objects to live out eternity in pain. There was some outcry against the stories in the early 70s and that aspect of vengeance never took root like it did in the mid 80s. I always found it interesting that alongside the shiny and bright superheroes at DC that they had these weird mysterious and spooky characters. Phantom Stranger's. Identity and origin have never been completely or clearly defined, but it is readily understood that he is serving some penance for deeds of the past - whether a fallen angel or a man, he is serving a punishment while assisting the JLA and others
I agree with much of what was said above ... Hercules arrogance made him hard to take for me. I've known too many people like that in real life, so why would I want to read about another one? I liked when Herc got pounded by the Masters of Evil; it humbled him (temporarily) and made him more relatable.
As for DC's darkness, I'd agree Miller's Dark Knight kind of ushered it in. I think the earlier stuff was (or was meant to be) more philosophical. Deadman was Eastern Philosophy, Spectre and Phantom Stranger were Western. Spectre and the Stranger sometimes dealt with religious themes and, as Martinex mentioned, Stranger's origin has been left vague on purpose. Even in Secret Origins he got four separate stories, any (or none) of which could be his "true" origin.
I enjoyed Hercules's various tenures with the Avengers. I think it's noteworthy that, unlike Thor, Hercules was never "leader material", and that's regardless of who his teammates were at the time. You could easily argue that the Champions were Natasha's team, in spite of Warren's bankrolling them. Herc, even then, was a B- or C-lister. And on the Champions, that's saying something! But again -- I do not dislike the character. He's fine with me.
I don't have enough experience with the Spectre, Deadman, or Phantom Stranger. I generally stay away from the magic/occult characters -- they just don't hold me like cosmic characters don't hold others. However, after reading Martinex's report on the Spectre's judgements/punishments I am more intrigued about those Bronze Age adventures!
Doug
I never read the more recent Hercules series, but I liked him best as a supporting character during the Roger Stern Avengers run. He could be comedy relief, fish-out-of-water, or an actual invaluable member in a fight, depending on the situation. I think Stern made great use of his flaws, ratcheting up tension between him and the Wasp, then later Namor, to entertaining effect.
My crash course in dark DC characters was during the Alan Moore Swamp Thing run, particularly the 2nd Annual which featured a bunch of them in the afterlife: Deadman, Phantom Stranger, Spectre and Etrigan. I was somewhat familiar with all of them before then, but that issue made me really like 'em.
-david p.
Hiya,
Hercules was, to me at least, the character that writers seemed to use when they were told that they couldn't have the one that they wanted. Now I know that's not the case, but nothing about the stories that he was in, prior to the Layton mini-series, indicated that they were tales that needed his presence. That he was there to fill the role of the strong dude.
Might also have been the lack of exclusivity. Anybody who wanted to could use the character in film, literature and comics.
As for the DC characters being forebares of darker story lines, I'd have to say no. Yes they were darker, but none of them were financially successful enough titles to have an editor say "character X is selling, lets do more of the same with Y and Z."
Seeya,
pfgavigan
Doug, those Bronze Age Spectre stories are well worth a read. Jim Aparo's art is beautiful and perfect for the strip. The Spectre's methods for disposing of criminals are magnificently twisted. He was a ghost who clearly took pride in his job.
Hercules I class alongside Namor - he spends his whole comic life walking a tightrope. Written with nuance he is interesting. But it doesn't take much to derail him towards stereotype and boorishness if the writer simply wants a 'type.'
I don't really know the darker Bronze DC characters or stories but from reputation and the covers (lol) is it right to say they were a superhero/horror hybrid with a different flavor to the contemporaneous Marvel Werewolf By Night/Frankenstein/Tomb of Dracula? If so, arguably Batman fits that envelope too, especially while Adams was seeking to restore his pulp roots. A gothic approach I guess.
1. Hercules was always best as a comedic character in a team book, allowing for the occasional solo story. If he had his own series it'd need to be an ensemble where he is presumably the "star," but really it is other characters who make it work. I think there was a series like that relatively recently (called Incredible Hercules), but I never read it.
2. I think DC's "dark" mystical characters were just bringing back the feel of older Crime and Horror comics that had mostly died in the Code Era.
- Dr. OO
P.S. Semester has ended, so I hope to be around more often (and look back at everything I've missed) and even contribute a guest post!
I always liked Hercules, particularly the early 80's miniseries. I even got the one-shot they did in Marvel Premiere. Growing up and reading mythology in school, Herc was always the most interesting (maybe because he was half human, I don't know). I even liked him when he was in the Avengers, but I never really got into The Champions. I don't know why he wasn't a bigger deal, other than Thor was a part of the Marvel Universe first.
I always enjoyed the DC trio of Spectre, Deadman, and Phantom Stranger. The Spectre series in Adventure Comics was fantastic. I think it just came a few years too soon. Would have been great in the mid 80's.
I think what impacted Hercules the most was him being a 'earth bound' hero. Unlike Thor, who had adventures on Earth and eternal Asgard, we never got the Ancient Tales of Olympus treatment that we saw in The Mighty Thor. I think that left Heracles too two dimensional. And I never saw his Power Mace being that big of a deal.
Okay, I don't think I have to repeat my lack of bonafides in all things DC, but aren't the Spectre, Deadman, Phantom Stranger, et al a line of heroes that traces back to The Shadow and such. Guys that you're just happy to have on your side.
Personal aside: We had an announcement at work that was so garbled there was nothing intelligible in it. When my co-worker turned to me I just said: "I heard 'Get to the choppaah, now'"! I crack myself up.....
Personal aside 2: I know that every time I scan a comic, there is always the possibility of something happening. They're old, I don't bag, blah blah blah but when I'm almost done with a scan and I hit the comic as I'm removing it and the cover pulls away... sadness, every single time.
Personnel aside: Dr O is back!!! Woo hoo!!!
(Struck by lightning, sounds pretty frightening
But you know the chances are so small
Stuck by a bee sting, nothing but a B-thing
Better chance you’re gonna buy it at the mall
But it’s a twenty-three four-to-one
That you can fall in love by the end of this song
So get up, get up
Tell the bookie "put a bet up"
Not a damn thing will go wrong
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright tonight
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright for another night
Hit by the A-Train, crashed in an airplane
I wouldn’t recommend either one
Killed by a Great White or a meteorite
I guess there ain’t no way to go that’s fun
But somewhere in the world someone is gonna fall in love by the end of this song
So get up, get up
No it’s never gonna let up so you might as well sing along
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright tonight
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright for another night
Sure things go wrong, but I’ll take my chances
Odds are long, so why not play?
Struck by lightning, sounds pretty frightening
But you know the chances are so small
Hit by the A-Train, crashed in an airplane
Better chance you’re gonna buy it at the mall
But it’s a twenty-three four-to-one
That you can fall in love by the end of this song
So get up, get up
No I’m never gonna let up
So you might as well sing along
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright tonight
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright tonight
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright tonight
The odds are that we will probably be alright
Odds are we're gonna be alright, odds are we're gonna be alright for another night).
PS: Robot callers have told me to "cool it" with the robot news. Just saying, there's something happening with the pyramids...
Prowler at the very least Spectre had his roots in the Golden Age and he and Phantom Stranger were definitely active in the Silver Age. There were aspects that I would say were definitely pulp crime related.
I would only say that if you haven't yet, it's worth reading Aparo's Spectre stories in Adventure. They are fairly to the point: crime and punishment and not a lot of moralizing along the way as I recall. Aparo's art seemed very clean, simple, attractive.
Adam's Deadman to a young kid had too much agonizing, soul searching, and the art just seemed "heavy."
1. Never a huge fan of Hercules, but never objected to him either. And in truth, I haven't read enough of his adventures to really have an opinion. That Layton miniseries has a good reputation; I need to dig that out of some dollar boxes.
2. Loved Deadman, and found the Spectre pretty good as well. Phantom Stranger- sort of the same situation as Hercules, not enough exposure to him. Regarding the Spectre- it seems odd he hasn't been more successful carrying his own title. He has a lot going for him; a great look, cool costume, eerie powers, and a spine-chilling name...
Well Herc has always been one of my favourite heroes, not just the Marvel version but almost all of his incarnations in print, movies or comicbooks. I think Hercules suffered from the dreaded writer's curse where you take an already established mythological character and try to shoehorn him into your own literary universe. Thor worked because Stan Lee, Jak Kirby and others made a Marvelized superhero version complete with a secret identity.
Hercules on the other hand seemed like an afterthought, with various writers not knowing how to handle such a character. It was like 'gee, we got Thor, now we need more heroes from ancient history. Hey, I know, how about Hercules?'
I only possess one issue of the Bob Layton limited series (one of the very first at that time), the one where Herc meets Galactus, but it's good, so I can recommend that run. Redartz ol' buddy,you and me need to go digging in those dollar boxes pronto!
- Mike 'have at thee!' from Trinidad & Tobago.
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