Two Questions: The Incredible Marketing Tool and the Retcon Gruel!
Martinex1: Our regularly scheduled Follow The Leader post will not appear today - not when the Hulk is in charge! Continuing with "HULK WEEK" this Tuesday, here are two questions* for you to ponder. Feel free to answer one or both of the queries*. (Please note the asterisk)!
QUESTION 1: Has the Hulk lost his top tier status as a marketing icon for Marvel, and if so what was the cause?
QUESTION 2: Did the addition of Bruce Banner's childhood abuse and subsequent multiple personalities help or hurt the Hulk character?
*Everything is bigger during HULK WEEK so here is a BONUS HULK WEEK QUESTION:
QUESTION 3: Is the Hulk really a loner or is he better suited for a team? Pros and cons - state your case.
17 comments:
Good grief-- this is like taking the Comp examine for our MFA. . . !
Leaving for work shortly-- so I'm gonna toss my briefest two cents in right at the top, here-- and hopefully see ya's all at lunchtime?
1) Although he's still a terrifically recognizable character, yes, I think he's dropped from that top tier. But then, so have SO MANY "legacy" heroes. All of the kid-oriented merchandise we used to see? Everything from underwear to toothpaste to candy to every type of toy imaginable to pencils to jewelry? Targeted at a MUCH younger audience that a) read comic books and b)saw many of their heroes on cartoons. Those kids all grew up into. .. well, into us, really-- and the comic book industry abandoned the younger market, and the kid-friendly cartoons became the much more adult MCU. So the largest swath of market-flooding does seem to have veered away from kid-merchandise in general, to my eye. (This is just one observation on this topic, mind you-).
2) I think it's fine, although it was certainly dark. Continuity-wise, it didn't always jibe exactly with earlier specifics and details (esp when Banner and Hulk would be physically divided up), but the MPD explanation really worked amazingly well with all sorts of nuances of the Banner/Hulk relationship. I'd say what didn't fly for me was the retconning of Banner as having been almost cripplingly a-social even as an adult, with an inability to connect or communicate with others around him, because what we'd seen of Bruce over the decades was a guy with an almost Steve-Rogers-level of self-lessness and desire to do the right thing in any extreme circumstance. . . but no one ever, ever noticed it. (I'll point to the end of Hulk #110 as a prime example. .. ). But-- losing "My" Hulk from the MPD revelation, that still smarts, yes.
3) Team. Team, team, team. Of course, I'm the guy who has ALWAYS thought Spidey was better on a team, too. I kinda think everyone's better when they're around their friends. "Hulk just wants to be left alone!" is one of his primary catch-phrases, but you can't actually take it literally. It almost always meant, "Hulk just wants peace!"-- wants the planes, tanks, shooting, hunting, and hounding to stop. He craves a lot of solitude, yes, but it invariably gives way to a desire to find company in one form or another. His heart-on-his-sleeve desire for friendship is without a doubt his biggest Achilles heel, because it usually only takes a conniving bad guy about two panels to ever convince the Hulk that they are really friends, and here, open this armored car for me, old pal, etc. But that desire for companionship and to belong is one of the best recurring themes of the book's long history. SO-- a team? Yep, love him in the Defenders-- although it's a little tough to justify how anything could be a threat if he's on the team, given his power level. And I particularly enjoyed him in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes animated series. Big, quiet Lurch of a guy who everyone on the team "got" for the most part.
Annnnnd gotta run-!
HB
Wow, power-house of questions today... Geez, where to start.
1) Yeah, those cheap 'peg-warmer' toys of the '70s drew from the WEIRDEST sources, like Dr. Zaius on a zip-driven motorcycle, all the parachuting action/sci-fi stars, even the vehicles. There was a Mego-sized 'Hulk Helicopter', 'Hulk Utility Belt', you name it.
Almost surprised Mego didn't do a 'Hulk Mobile' like the Spidey, Cap and Green Arrow variations. The notion of a 'Hulk Van' (like the BatLab and Joker Mobile versions), would not be too outlandish of an idea..., come to think of it, with the exclusive Bruce Banner figure with torn clothes..?
2) My favorite genre for old Greenskin would be the Silver Age and early Trimpe issues, typically beautiful covers.., some retread stories with the typical DESTROY-THE-HULK antagonists, but all-in-all my favs.
3) As for teams, the oh-so-brief Hulk-as-Avenger was a nice tool to get the early Avengers an on-going mission, so it served the series well. Even a nice 'proving ground' for the Quartet when they started. I was originally going to state I preferred him a loner, but he did bring such a funny appeal to the Defenders early on, having to deal with just WHO was going to show up at the fight..: A quasi-supportive team player, or a nasty uncooperative force of nature that got in the way more than helped, such as with Yellowjacket in ish 23...
Who could imagine the early Defenders without ol' Hulkie..?
The popularity of superhero movies has introduced new top-tier characters like Iron Man, Deadpool and Wolverine who were previously unknown to the general public so they have replaced the Hulk as the faces of Marvel. And I loved the Hulk in the Defenders but he doesn't really belong in a team as he is just too unpredictable.
Merchandise...in the 70s being green meant something. Nowadays any old bit of CGI can do the job absent charm and relatability. *old man mode off*
The Peter David retcon...is an interesting exercise in how superheroes reflect their times. Stan Lee envisaged the character as a cross between a werewolf/Frankensten and was a throwback to the Marvel Monster books.
The Hulk at that point represented the 'monster within' trope but in the 1980s the psychological/therapeutic model was skilfully mined by PAD during his long run. While I regret the loss of 'my' 70s Hulk, perhaps all characters have to grow up eventually.
The Hulk could have realistically retired with dignity at the end of the PAD run to enable Banner to move on and heal. Alas the trademark gods demanded otherwise.
Team player...yes and no. It worked in The Defenders because of the whole 'non-team' thing. It's difficult to see how it could work in any other circumstance.
There's only room for a certain number of top tier Marvel heroes for marketing. And with Cap and Iron Man jumping up to top tier as a result of the films, someone has to drop out. That director of the first hulk film who filmed the fight in the dark rather than coming back to film the next morning has a lot to answer for.
Who knows, the hulk may make a marketing comeback, what with the FF being treated as if they never existed.
1. Agreeing with Colin Jones and dangermash, the Marvel cinematic universe produced a shift in marketing. That said, Hulk is still frequently seen on shelves- along with many other characters: the whole industry of collectibles. Figures, LEGOS, bobble heads, and so on- there are still many merchandised items, they just cost more...
2. Must beg off this one, unfamiliar as I am with the later Hulk stories.
3. Solo Hulk, but with the definite exception of the Defenders. As Colin B noted, the 'non-team' thing worked. Can't see the Defenders without him, and his solitude was eased by the friendship he found with the group.
Hmmm, interesting questions.
1) Hulk has definitely lost a lot of his marketing mojo, even though he's still pretty recognizable to the non-geek public. Maybe the movies had something to do with it; Hulk had two (or was it three?) standalone movies, none of which was as well-received as Captain America or Iron Man.
2) I don't mind the retcon about the child abuse; it gives us a reason for Hulk's rage other than "he's just a monster". But the 18 different personalities ended up being a bit over the top for me.
3) I'd say Hulk's a loner who wishes he was a team player, hence his on/off relationship with the Defenders. He certainly doesn't have any trouble forming friendships ... Rick, Jim, Crackajack, Patsy, Valkyrie. And to follow up on david_b's comment, I personally would've loved to see "Professor Hulk" join the Avengers; that idea was teased during infinity Gauntlet, but they never did anything with it :(
1. The reason the Hulk was such a big marketing icon back in the day was mostly due the fact that he starred in a popular weekly TV series. I remember that every Hulk book back in late 70's and early 80's was emblazoned with the tagline "Marvel's TV Sensation!". As a result of his small screen exposure 'ol greenskin went from the B-list to the A-list, and he remained there for many years. Once the show left the air for good though his popularity slowly started to wain as the memory of the series began to fade from the public consciousness.
The Hulk's popularity and status as a big green marketing giant could have been revitalized with his leap onto the big screen a few years ago. However the first movie totally mishandled the character and was not well received by fans. The second film did a much better job of doing the Hulk justice, but it still fell short of many people's expectations.
His movie appearances have revitalized his popularity with the public somewhat, but not enough to keep him on par with the likes of Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, etc. (Hmmm, maybe they should give Hulkie his own show on Netflix).
2. Ret-cons are almost always a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. Try as I might I can't think of even one instance where a ret-con actually improved on a character. Even those that had the best intentions usually do more harm than good. Or are at the very least just unnecessary.
Some good examples would be: The Star Wars prequels. Wolverine getting an official "Origin". And pretty much everything JMS did to Spider-Man during his stint as the writer on ASM. I could go on, but you get my point. When it comes to beloved characters I wish writers would just tell stories about their present (or future) and leave their past in the past, and let readers enjoy their memories of the stories they read growing up.
3. Just about any character can work on a team if it's handled correctly. Except for Spider-Man. It drives me crazy when they try to put Spidey in a permanent team situation. I hated him being an Avenger. He is the ultimate loner and should stay that way. (IMO of course).
But I digress. This is Hulk week after all, and the Hulk worked pretty well for me as a Defender in the comics. And I think he works good as an Avengers in the MCU as well. However, I don't think he would have worked very well at all as an Avenger in the comics. (Go figure).
Thanks all for piping in and playing along.
1) My opinion mirrors many of yours. I think the Hulk was a marketing mainstay in our youth - he was always right there along with Spider-Man for Marvel. No others truly came close. They had cartoons. They were frequently partnered in ads and in any free giveaway from Marvel. They were on TV prime time. Their appearance was very recognizable. I do think movies were the one-two punch for the Hulk. One - other comic character movies were very good; Iron Man took Marvel in a whole new direction. Two- Hulk movies weren't bad but they weren't received well. And I think a large part of it is the Hulk's character itself; I think on the screen he is very hard to relate to. Unlike in comics, movies cannot easily share thought balloons and the inner workings of the character, so you are left with a massive pummeling beast with very little of the childlike pathos, fear, and trust. How do you depict that with few words and CGI? At the very least it is very hard. And if the Bruce Banner character doesn't make up for the empathetic gap, the audience gets lost. I think the combo left THe Hulk in the top ten (he is definitely recognizable) but no longer in the top two with Spidey. I think even Thor and Ant-Man may have surpassed him (or will soon). The best film depiction of the Hulk was in The Avengers when he smashed Loki -there was humor, savagery, and something else - a certain joy and freedom.
2) I really enjoyed Peter David's run on the Hulk. At one point I owned ever issue from that period. And I would recommend it highly. In retrospect though, there is something both right and wrong with the revised backstory. I like how Colin Bray framed it - the psychological examination of the character was a modern update and in fact a very fitting revelation. On the other hand, I feel it may have changed something in the Hulk that I adored - the Hulk in some ways had been an unbridled and completely free innocent. He did not conform to the bad in society (or societal structure at all) and that led to some interesting and fun commentary and analysis. He represented a release - he acted on a very honest platform. He was brutal sometimes sure - but he was also strangely inspirational. He was not confined. You could always care about the Hulk. After the change in history, I felt I could still care about the character but it was different - it was sadder. And it changed the meaning of his outbursts. He was truly hurt and badly so; he was not a symbol of honest release and unbridled frustration, but now he was also a symbol of true pain and a child unprotected. I want to make sure I state this correctly because there is true merit in the new complexity, but it is hard for me to take the same type of joy in seeing the Hulk destroy a tank if I now see a truly hurt child reacting in anger. He is not just irritated, frustrated,and annoyed; he is in pain from abuse and cannot deal with it. Again, I recommend the Peter David run highly -but it made the Hulk book less of an escape for me. That is definitely ok - but I approach it differently. I should note also for clarity that David expanded on a story that was initiated by Bill Mantlo (and the creation of that story had its own controversy as to the source of the ideation). So this was a gradual evolution for the Hulk.
Sorry...more to say...
3) I think...Team. Like others here, I liked the Hulk's tenure on the Defenders. It was definitely a dysfunctional group - but it also had a nice familial feel to it. The Hulk fit in and was accepted (perhaps like never before) despite irritating the others from time to time. His interaction with Valkyrie and Nighthawk was very different from any interplay seen on other teams. And the Hulk seemed happier. In "reality" a wild card like the Hulk would have been difficult on a team, but somehow this seemed natural.
I also liked the Professor Hulk's stint with the Pantheon. Those books (also written by Peter David) were great fun. And it showed a side of Banner we hadn't seen before. In my view, that run demonstrated "what might have been" if fate allowed Banner to reach his full potential in mind and strength. Of course it had to come crashing down, but it was a nice respite.
Thanks all for commenting during Hulk Week. I appreciate it and hope you are enjoying it thus far. Much more to come. Cheers.
Wonderfully put Martinex1. Following that storyline we are not able to see the Hulk as truly innocent and childlike because he had his own childhood taken away.
Interrupting this chain of comments for a brief moment.... Richard Hatch passed away today at age 71. I always enjoyed his character on Battlestar Galactica, and I believe some of our commenters have met him in the past.
Bah! The Hulk added much needed colour to the early Avengers and it was never the same after he left. But that was 54 years ago.
As for Hulk's relevance today, can any character with thousands of stories over 55 years retain his vitality and momentum?
Hmm, here's my 2 cents (TT money only!) -
1) To me the Hulk is still up there in terms of merchandising, although due to the Avengers movies Cap and Iron Man get a lot of attention. Spidey of course is still Marvel's flagship character and will continue to be so for a long while. One look at a local toy store had a lot of Cap, Spidey and Hulk stuff. So, yes he's still a marketing icon although some new players are coming on strong nowadays.
2) The childhood abuse angle was a good one by Peter David, and it actually gave some more depth and insight into the character, so I'm all for it, although like Mike Wilson said, you can have too much of a good thing with so many different personalities it becomes too convoluted.
3) For me the Hulk is the ultimate loner, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't occasionally team up with others in the Marvel Universe. He was a founding member of the Avengers even though he left shortly after and of course he was a member of the Defenders, a non-team which he fitted in better with than the Avengers.
- Mike 'I nominate HB to be the blue Hulk!' from Trinidad & Tobago.
Heh-- thanks, Mike T&T--
Marti, I think you touched on something I agree with in the retcon question. If the entirety of what we think of as the Hulk's innate personality is considered nothing more that a manifestation or "symptom" of a deeper personality disorder, then it of course tends to diminish the fully-formed, three-dimensional character we'd loved for years and years before the retcon. But-- you know what? I'd be more than willing to submit (and accept) that Doc Samson's diagnosis was not smack on the money in that regard. In fact, IIRC, he later on suggested that "human" Banner was no longer the true base personality anymore, due to the gamma-exposure. Soooooo, maybe this was indeed one guy with two very different, dis-associated sides? I can happily back that up with the romantic/sentimental observation that Jarella saw absolutely no difference between Banner and Hulk-- they were the same guy to her, regardless of what his soul was wrapped in. So--- I'm comfortable tossing out select pieces of that retcon.
Team/no Team? How about that the Hulk is personally better off with a "group" that he fits in with. Issue #127, he finds a place working alongside Mogul (and the MoleMan's Moloids) in Subterranea-- and is quite happy. Issue #137, he gets shang-haied onto the crew of a space-whaler (!), and is depicted as having a content and useful life on-board. #'s 176-178, he becomes a favored- even beloved- disciple of Warlock on Counter-Earth. Maybe he's a "group" guy more than a "team" guy, which is why the Defenders worked so well. . .
HB
I just remembered... 1978 and I took a photo of my Mego Hulk on a large boulder. I showed the photo to a kid at school and told him it was the 'real' Hulk, who actually existed in America. He believed me.
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