Martinex1: On the last day of HULK WEEK, let's discuss the influence the Hulk has had on other characters. Obviously, the Hulk himself was the result and culmination of literary precedents like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Robert Louis Stevenson's Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hyde. Are there others, and how did Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Peter David and others modify the approach?
"Man or monster," is an ongoing theme in comics. Discuss the various creatures, monsters, tragic characters, and even villains that share Hulk's predicament in some way, shape, or form. Discuss the influence of the Hulk on these creations and vice versa. Take a look at the below covers for just a small sample of similar beings, whether heroes or adversaries, aliens or ancients. Who were the best and who were the worst? What about other Marvel and DC heroes; did even the handsome and sublime have Hulk-like tendencies?
Also, since it is the last day in this gamma irradiated adventure, feel free to bring up any other topic related to the Hulk that you would like to discuss. Concepts, artists, writers, storylines, and pop culture are all fair game. Consider today's Chew the Fat to be an open forum on all things Hulk!
Bring it on BITBA brothers and sisters - there is still much to smash in the next 24 hours!
12 comments:
Questions for you - are there any recommended stories that focus on Bruce Banner? Unlike Peter Parker or Steve Rogers I never really glommed to Bruce Banner. He always seemed like just a vehicle for the Hulk -whose character was much more interesting. It seemed slightly unbalanced whereas I could find equal interest in other heroes' civilian lives. Do you feel that way too or am I missing something?. Was Bruce Banner ever a major character in the Defenders? I don't recall him in that book much at all. Even in down time it seemed to be the Hulk hanging with the team.
Was the creation of the Beast just a Hulk knockofff? Were there good sales trends they were trying too mimic or was there more to it? Why did the Thing not evolve similarly to the Hulk in power levels? Did Banner ever take on the Thing in a reversed battle of brains and brawn?
Or likewise in Hulk books what stories had Banner as the clear protagonist rather than his alter ego?
Solomon Grundy reminds me most of the Hulk, with his scruffy hair and torn clothes.
Also thanks HB for filling me in a couple days ago on Hulk's secret identity for his first few years. I've read Hulk's first few stories, but not much else from the '60s.
Martinex1 - interestingly Peter David left the title because editorial:
"...wanted to have the Hulk split off from Banner, and that made it very, very problematic for me to write the title, because ultimately it's about Bruce Banner. The book is called The Incredible Hulk, but it's really about Bruce Banner."
Perhaps that jars with some of us, I don't know. But it explains how Peter David was able to explore the character so successfully for so long. If he saw the Hulk as an aspect of Banner rather than as a distinct personality, the premise of the book fundamentally changes.
Thinking about the cultural context of the Hulk, we have the issue of science in the nuclear age. Whereas Dr Jekyll was the archetypal Victorian scientist with his test tubes and expertise in experimental chemistry, Bruce Banner was representative of the military industrial complex and the power of modern physics. Yet both were undone when their analytical nature was overwhelmed by irrational forces released through their science. Same psychological anxiety, different time and place...
Solomon Grundy and Blockbuster are somewhat Hulk-like, but I think both of them preceded the Hulk. Maybe Hulk's biggest legacy is all the post-Bronze Age spin-offs (Rick as the Gray Hulk; Ross as Red Hulk; Betty as Red She-Hulk; Lyra, Hulk's daughter by the alternate universe Thundra; and whoever the hell Amadeus Cho turned into).
As for Banner stories, the only ones that come to mind were when Banner and the Hulk were separated and Banner gathered the Hulkbusters to hunt down (and kill) his brutish alter ego. That was in the early 300's, maybe during Byrne's run or shortly after? I'm sure it was post-Mantlo, anyway. Unfortunately, those stories weren't really all that great, at least in my opinion (though it's been a long time since I read them).
A couple of lesser-known Hulk-types, as far as characterization goes: 1) The rather brain-damaged incarnation of Drax the Destroyer in WARLOCK AND THE INFINITY WATCH. He was green, he was physically HUGE, and was comically simple-minded. 2) That child-like villain (then behavior-modded good-guy) from the Gruenwald's SQUADRON SUPREME-- "Shape", wasn't it?
Although Dr. Jekyll & Mr Hyde and Frankenstein served as Stan's literary inspiration for the character, I think later writers wisely drew inspiration from Lenny, from Steinbeck's OF MICE AND MEN. Definitely shorter-tempered, sure, and dangerously volatile-- but that's who the deceptively child-like version of the Hulk reminds me of the most. Even moreso would be a Hulk-foe I mentioned yesterday- The Missing Link-- who in issue #179 had even been welcomed into a small household in a mining community, and given the name "Lincoln". The fight in that issue is particularly poignant because both Lincoln and the Hulk- via somewhat confused perceptions- have this mutual belief that they are protecting this little family they both care for from being harmed by this "monster" they're facing. It's like a couple of incredibly well-meaning Lennys trying so hard to do the right thing, and they're not quite bright enough to get a handle on the situation.
Looking at Marti's thoughts on Bruce Banner, there-- one of the downsides of Peter David's run is that it sort of forgets about the truly and utterly self-less and quietly heroic individual that Bruce Banner was in those later Silver Age Hulk years. Bruce is hard to pin down as a character because he doesn't exhibit any exaggerated personality traits-- he's not particularly flashy or funny or temperamental. And whenever we do see him, he's generally in some state of post-Lost Weekend, and grimly resolved to get himself up to speed and out of immediate harm's way. What he IS, is extremely considerate, a clear thinker, direct in his communication, insatiably curious when it comes to science (more than a little bit of Reed Richards in him, there), and has a Steve Rogers-like compulsion to Do The Right Thing without all of the rhetoric that can sometimes go along with that.
Issue #110-- Bruce saves the entire planet. . . alone. . . in a cave. . . in the Savage Land. . . while the machine he's deactivating kills him with its radiation. No one knows he's doing it. (Don't worry. .. aliens revive him early in #111.) He just does it. No prompting or anything. I'm not sure if even Stan knew what a powerful act this was when he was writing it.
Issue #117-- Just Hulk & Betty left on GammaBase as the Leader has launched a couple of nuclear war-heads. Betty calms Hulk down, triggering the transformation. Bruce has about 5 seconds to catch up, and figures out how launch an anti-MM. He "gets it", y'know? And makes the right choice in the moment of extreme crisis. (And then transforms back to Hulk, who knocks the other one down, sure-)
He is forever taking on jobs as the janitor in this or that science lab over the years, and simply cannot resist the compulsion to casually offer (while sweeping up in the background), "You know, if you just reversed the polarity on the Cheesenberger Foozle-izers, you'd quadruple the angstrom output--". The man loves science. Earnest-- he is a scientifically earnest fellow. Which. . . doesn't always make for wildly dramatic script-writing. Heh.
HB
Concerning the Beast, I believe they monsterfied him during the inactive period of the X-Men, when they existed only in reprints or occasional guest-stars.
They probably figured, "It's the 70's; let's do something weird and spooky with this guy, he doesn't have anything better to do. He's basically just an ape-like dude."
I've got that issue of the J.L.A., it's goofy fun. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that came out during the '60's Batman craze, with all the sound effects on the cover. Robin in his new Bat-duds is featured prominently, and both Grundy and Blockbuster turn out to be a couple of big ol' cuddlebears who settle their fight with a hug.
M.P.
I always assumed The Beast was based more on The Thing than the Hulk, originally filling the same role in the X-Men as The Thing did in the FF and then being transformed into a, "Monster," just like Ben Grimm had been. Like Grimm, after his monsterfication, he was originally bitter and horrified but then became a more comedic character.
I seem to remember that issues #123 and #124 mostly concentrate on Bruce Banner, as Reed Richards, "Cures," him of being The Hulk and he almost marries Betty before The Rhino shows up and gatecrashes the wedding.
Issue #2 is nearly all about Bruce Banner as he discovers the Toad-Men's plot to invade the Earth, gets arrested as a spy and then escapes and conceives a plan to defeat the invaders. I remember the Hulk barely being in it.
As far as influences on his creation go, I'd say there was also originally an influence of 1950s "B" movies like Them and The Incredible Shrinking Man, in terms of him being created by atomic testing. Also, his original concept of changing into the Hulk at night seems to have been derived from Lon Chaney Jr's Wolfman movies.
Er, I guess that was Batman, not Earth-2 Bat-Robin on that JLA cover. I dunno how I got that mixed up in my head. Thinking of another issue, I guess.
Now, where did I put my damn house keys?
M.P., getting steadily older
Since it was discussed here earlier this week:
I'm generally a fan of Peter David's work, but I've never been crazy about the whole "Hulk wasn't gamma spawned, the Hulk persona was always buried in Banner's psyche" retcon. It just feels unnecessary and feels like an attempt to make a character like Hulk more "realistic." My $.02.
Well, to paraphrase Dostoevsky, "Every man at some point has wanted to turn into the Hulk and smash his father."
M.P.
In the first Hulk story, Banner only became the Hulk under a full moon and reverted at sunrise. So we can add the Wolfman to his underlying influences. A few pages later, Banner muses that he first 'became the Hulk when night fell' (i.e. it didn't have to be a full moon), as if Lee and Kirby were making it up as they went along... which, I guess they were! That status continued for a few more issues until abandoned in favour of him Hulking out when he got miffed.
I agree with Steve Does Comics that the Beast was the X-Men's answer to the Thing -- the brutish but likeable super-strong team member, which became a mainstay for superhero teams from that point onward.
PS: The first time the Hulk ever said 'bah' and 'puny' in the SAME SENTENCE was on page 20 of The Incredible Hulk #1...to wit: 'Bah! No puny pistol can kill the Hulk!'
Can I digress completely and ask this simply because it's the Hulk, so there'll never be a better time...I stopped reading about #170-something, and wonder if any writer since ever wrote a story where the Hulk is actually left alone for a prolonged period.
He was always being hassled by the military or whatnot, and claimed that he just wanted some peace and quiet, but what would happen if he got it? Would he get bored? Turn back into Banner through sustained inertia?
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