Martinex1: Earlier in the week, we ranked the "Big Six," the iconic heroes from the Avengers and JLA (see Monday's post). Now I want to focus on the next wave. There are characters in those teams that are nearly indispensable when discussing the groups' histories.
So today, let's rank and file the "Little Six," the core team members just behind Captain America, Batman, Superman, and the rest. I've narrowed the list down to three long term heroes from DC and Marvel: Hawkeye, Green Lantern, Vision, Flash, Aquaman, and Yellowjacket (or any of Hank Pym's identities if you prefer)!
And don't fret that I have no female characters on this list. I have a special Rank and File just in the wings to highlight the greater gender! I couldn't deny the significant contribution of today's heroes, and found that there were many more I wanted to discuss, so watch for that soon.
As for this round, here are my rankings:
1. Yellowjacket (Hank Pym / Giant Man / Goliath): The Avengers would not be the same without Hank hanging around - even intermittently. Despite the character's flaws that were significantly increased during the Bronze Age, I had always liked Hank's early involvement, powerset, and costumes. That still carries through for me.
2. Hawkeye: Likewise Clint was an important part of the early Avengers with his sarcasm and attitude. He was a reformed villain and that aspect has always been part of the Avengers' approach and milieu. I think Hawkeye was a model for many characters to come later - a hero at heart but not perfect by any means. He was arrogant, sometimes abrasive, sometimes hilarious; he was the heart of the team for so long and a leader despite himself. With limited abilities and no real power, I still enjoy his exploits.
3. Flash: When we previously reviewed the Big Six, it struck me that out of all of the DC heroes I collected the most solo comics of the Flash - even more than Batman or Superman. He has a great rogues gallery and even though his power is only speed, he uses it in fascinating and inventive ways. I definitely prefer the Wally West version over the Barry Allen Flash - much of that has to do with the Mark Waid penned issues. The Flash started the Silver Age and I still enjoy the old covers and craziness.
4. Green Lantern: Like the above, I collected more Green Lantern than the Trinity characters. I did think Hal Jordan was a bit of a bore in most situations. And I wanted his space adventures to be better than they were. It would have been amazing if somebody like Jim Starlin ever took a shot at the character. But I liked some arcs of the series quite a bit. His power often acted as deus ex machina, but there was something about Oa, the Guardians, the Corp, and the rest of the world created around Hal that I enjoyed.
5. Vision: This may be a shock as I really love the character, but I struggled to rank him higher. I find that all the things I enjoy about the Vision happened between his first appearance and about issue 110 of the Avengers. Unlike others that visit this site, I missed the first run of the Englehart years and in retrospect those did not sit as well with me when I returned to them. Many of the stories printed after that period starring the Vision left me flat. I feel like most of the true character development was done much earlier. And I think that the marriage to the Scarlet Witch and his eventual deconstruction was bungled. I have not read his most recent series at all.
6. Aquaman: I suspect that many of our visitors today will rank Aquaman low on this poll. I just don't know that much about him. And I greatly prefer his counterpart Namor. But it is probably ignorance that drives this decision, as many of his books' art from the late Silver and early Bronze ages looks great.
So now it is back to you. What do you have to say about these second tier heroes from the powerhouse teams?
17 comments:
Aquaman and Sub-Mariner ... does anyone know how they survive under water? They clearly have no gills, so they must be holding their breath when submerged, which is what every real-life seagoing mammal does.
However, how do they talk underwater if they're holding their breath?
Also, what's Yellow Jacket doing in that picture???
I wonder if we're looking at one of those fundamental differences between late-Silver/early-Bronze Age Marvel and DC, here?
What's the first thing you generally think of with Hawkeye, Vision, and Hank Pym? Their complicated personal storylines and striking, and extremely varied, personalities. You think of them as characters as opposed to thinking of them as superheroes. At least I do. With Flash, GL, and Aquaman, you think of fellows with awfully homogeneous, middle-of-the-road, good-guy personalities (with interchangeable speech patterns) who have very interesting powers and adventures. They entertain the reader, rather than involve them.
Hunh-- and you know what else? Flash, GL, and Aquaman were all second-stringers who still had their own books/solo features. Hank (as both Ant-Man and Giant-Man) had a feature in half of Tales to Astonish for a little while, but beyond that, he and Vizh and Hawkeye only seen in the pages of The Avengers. There are solid editorial reasons for that, of course-- primarily that you need characters who can "grow" in the group book w/out wrecking the continuity in a separate title-- but it seems like DC didn't catch onto that for awhile. And this is also why so many of the best, most memorable Avengers arcs revolve around the guys listed above.
My own choices? Ha! It's sort of like the "List Your Five Favorite Characters" discussions on the old Avengers Assemble page. My own choices will change with the seasons-- but right now I'll go with:
1) Hawkeye
2)Vision
3) Flash
4) Hank Pym
5) Green Lantern
6) Aquaman
I too am not very familiar w/ Aquaman- although his sort-of-failed tenure as the leader of the Detroit-based JLA was a pretty darned engaging- but I'll still go so far as to say that I prefer ALL SIX of these characters to DC's Big Three.
HB
Great topic today..., I typically found these folks as being the 'guts' of the teams more than the headliners themselves.
1) YJ, Doug (and some here) fully know my stance on Hank. I liked him best as YJ during the early Vision issues; most people forget he was an excellent leader and the costume really rocked. I enjoyed his brief Buscema stint in Defenders as well, he could have been well used in that team, but someone decided to go with Nighthawk instead to pretty much play the same team-grounding role, sans the scientist/chemist aspect. Most here would recall back when Pym was on par with Stark and Richards in terms of MU technological standing, which makes his decline with Shooter even harder.
2) GL, it was always hard to give him a personality.., really. If you make him too harsh, becomes a jerk. I'd like to think he's been fleshed out better lately (if the animated series was any indicator), but I haven't really kept track.
3) Flash always had that great Carmine Infantino-feel going for him early in the Silver Age, then I started liking his solo title even more back around '68 getting a bit darker in tone (like most DC titles then..). I especially enjoyed Carmine returning to end the title in the early 80s. As with GL and Aquaman, most folks criticized JLA for having interchangeable dull characterizations, whereas in the Avengers, you had more distinctive personalities and backstories coming from the likes of Hawkeye and Vish.., as HB mentioned.
JLA obviously tried to inject this into GA and Red Tornado, but I suspect Ollie was too mean-spirited to make an effective Clint-copy.
4) Ahhh Vish. Like most here, I enjoyed the brooding aspect of him, especially with the early Barry Smith art. It was his pinnacle of existence for me. Post-ish 110 was arguably his decline, the Englehart idea of romantic tension was great for the dozen issues with Swordsman/Mantis, but essentially lost it's relevance and grounding afterwards with different writers.
I personally would have split them up, very dramatically, but that wasn't to be obviously.
Wow. Great topic and already some very insightful comments.
HB, I think your analysis is spot on and explains why I was mainly a Marvel guy with only a smattering of DC during my collecting years. And also like your take on your boy YJ, david_b. I prefer to pretend that everything they did with (to) him after I got out never happened.
So...
1. Vision - I have always liked him. The Englehart run while catching up on his origin and early issues - that was a good time.
1A. Hawkeye - And I had a tough time not picking Hawk first, so he's 1A. The quitting the Avengers, going to the Defenders, back to the Avengers again while the reprints were Kooky Quartet heaven.
3. YJ - Agree a lot with david_b about his former standing up there with Shellhead and Stretcho. A great character, but I just don't like him as much as the first 2.
456. The other 3 are interchangeable to me. I have a soft spot for Aquaman. If Supes , Bats and WW are the DC Big 3, I think you could make an argument that he is (or was) in the Big 4. He was in the first version of the Super Friends but the other 2 were not. There was also a Superman-Aquaman cartoon hour at some point right? And cmon, the guy could communicate with Fish!!!
So I guess that puts Aquaman in the Big 4 of my Little 6. (?)
Tom
Another blurb on Vision --> His stoic arms-folded stance on the Bronze Age Avengers masthead in the early 100s was ALWAYS my favorite. It gave the title a ultra-icy-cool appearance and distinct personality.
Contrast that with the later MTU reprint issues with Hawkeye full-body stance and others featured, just didn't have the same dramatic feel.
1. The Vision
I would extend the prime Vision period thru Avengers #57 - #250 (ish) which was a good run. During much of that time he was the synthetic heart of the team and possibly the most effective outworking of Roy's obsession with the Golden Age.
2. Green Lantern
I'm all over a character whose powers are limited only by his imagination. Pity that a passing jazz-freak or beatnik didn't assume the v1 or v2 GL mantle respectively. Then we would have seen some wild stuff, especially with Ditko or Kirby on the art.
The Green Lantern powers make him a good team player and lots of reasons for the JLA to go adventuring into space.
Finally, and nothing to do with team book, the early Gil Kane SA GL covers are lovely. They are the only time I prioritise high grade copies over readers in my collection.
So a hodge-podge of reasons for the #2 pick.
3. Flash
What others have said - powers used effectively and a cool rogues gallery. I had my lazy assumptions about the DC story formula shaken by the death of Iris Allen storyline. There was real depth there - carried over several issues - which gave me a new fondness for the character (well, Barry Allen, at least)
4. Hawkeye
Surprising myself that he isn't higher. Hard to explain. Another day, another logical argument, he could have been #1, #2 or #3. However, he has simply become less relevant to me over the years - cool costume, strong character aside.
5. Yellowjacket
Awesome 70s wing panels (disco or what?) aside, Yellowjacket never really got going as a Hank Pym alter-ego. On the positive side, as YJ he seemed to finally major on his intellect (going toe-to-toe with Tony Stark brains-wise) but on the negative side, his YJ powers replicated Janet's a little too closely.
6. Aquaman
Sadly unfamiliar with the character but what I have read has not stood out. Sorry Arthur, I'm sure you're a lovely man really.
Run this tomorrow and I'll have a different sequence, no doubt.
Yes david_b! Vision gave the Avengers gravitas!
Insert "density of a diamond" pun here.
Tom
Hmmm, this one's a bit harder than the Big Six, mainly because I'm pretty ambivalent toward most of these characters.
1) Vision: As Colin Bray said, he's kinda the heart of the Avengers. He reminds me of Martian Manhunter in that way; they're both the "outsiders" of their teams, but they're there through every iteration, holding the line. The storyline about Vision getting deconstructed was actually well done, but it sucked that they completely excised his personality.
2)Hawkeye: Depending on who's writing him, Hawkeye can be the somewhat annoying conscience of the team, or he can be completely insufferable. I liked how Stern wrote him ... somewhere between those two things.
3) Flash: I've always found Flash sort of boring, but slightly less so than the rest of the list.
4) Green Lantern: Same for GL; his ring is basically a "get out of danger free" device, and I've never found his convoluted personal life all that interesting.
5)Aquaman: He has the potential to be interesting, but rarely is (at least to me); I liked how he was written in the JLA Year One miniseries. I keep meaning to check out Peter David's run, not because I love Aquaman, but because I love Peter David.
6) Hank Pym: He just bores the hell out of me. I get the feeling that even the whole "wife beater" storyline was done just to give him some kind of personality. I did like how he was the team's resident scientist on Englehart's WCA run, though Hank might've worked better as the East Coasters' scientist and Bill Foster for the Whackos, but whatever.
Keen observations! So how do the 3 Marvel characters not get their own books though clearly preferred, and the 3 DC characters get their own with GL and Flash having serious runs in their own books every decade since 1960? Strange?
Well stated, group! Fine comments on a fine topic.
1. Vision- I join Colin Bray in extending Vision's solid run past issue 200. Really enjoyed the interplay with him, Wanda, Wonder Man, and Mantis. Seemed like they were always working out a triangle, but I always felt Wanda and Vision made a unique couple. Wish it would have been explored further.
2. Hawkeye- longtime fondness for the archer. For all his ego and bluster, he seemed to have a sense of vulnerability and ordinary guy- ness that others lacked. But ditch the miniskirt costume from the early 70s...
3. Green Lantern- Fantastic costume, cool powers. As a kid I'd get some ring from a gumball machine and pretend it was Power Ring. And Guy Gardner and John Stewart are solid alternatives to Hal.
4. Hank Pym ( but as Ant Man). Yellowjacket was fine, so was Giant Man. But Ant Man is my pick, more interesting imo.
5. Flash- read very few Flash stories growing up, but have gained much appreciation for the character from the current tv series. Also his critical role in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
6. Aquaman- nothing against him, liked the blue suit 80's look. I just prefer Namor...
Back up to Doc Davison, there-- I seem to recall that Namor actually does have gills somewhere? That might have been part of Byrne's retcon of him. . . or maybe it was earlier than that? One assumes they'd just be a part of his combined mutant DNA, on his mother's side, yeah? Aquaman-- no clue, except--- remember in THE ABYSS how the scientists had come up with a way for lungs to "breathe" oxygenated fluid? Maybe there's some explanation sneaking around in there?
On Aquaman's general behalf, can I say that if nothing else, his book had a HUGE ratio of terrific covers, clear back into the silver age, compared to almost any other title. And that extends clear into the Bronze and later re-boots. It's like, "The Covers Might Make Me Buy This Whole Series", really--
HB
Thanks for commenting guys, I was wondering if anybody thought Quicksilver, Black Panther, Black Knight, Martian Manhunter, the Atom or any other (male) character should have made their respective second-tier lists. And if so who would drop off?
CH47. I too had that thought. I know that the Vision and Hawkeye have modern series, but why couldn't the three Avengers have supported their own solo series in the Bronze Age? There were some mini-series but what was preventing them to make the leap? I would have liked a Yellowjacket series circa 1976, and I thought his solo short run as Ant-Man in Marvel Feature in the early 70s was quite good.
Regarding Namor - he does have gills. They are never shown that I recall (and I think it is insinuated they are on his neck) but he mentions them in the original Marvel series in the Tiger Shark issue. And later some enemies do something to close his gills and he has a problem breathing. He has lungs also. Another question though is how a hybrid Antlantean-Human can fly -and that they clearly state it is those little ankle wings that allow him to fly. Regarding Aquaman, I have no clue how he breaths. But I do agree Aquaman had amazing covers on his solo series.
I like the variety and detailed answers today. Cheers.
OK here's my list -
1) Vision - the quintessential Avenger after Cap. When someone mentions the Avengers, it's ol' Viszh who pops into my mind.
2) Hawkeye - again, an Avengers mainstay, he added a real dynamic element to the group.
3) Yellowjacket - ah, where would Earth's mightiest heroes be without Dr. Hank Pym? Not too sure about his psychological instabilities, but he's definitely a core member.
4) Flash - my favourite is still the Barry Allen Flash. Martinex1, you can just imagine all the cool stuff you could do if you had superspeed powers!
5) Green Lantern - my personal favourite JLAer apart from Batman; coolest powerset of all the DC heroes. Sure, Hal Jordan's a plain vanilla personality, but man Gil Kane sure drew a mean GL!
6) Aquaman - gotta admit I prefer Namor; ol' Subby has a ton more distinctive character. Can't wait to see how Jason Mamoa plays him in the upcoming JLA movie.
- Mike 'what about the microscopic six?' from Trinidad & Tobago.
Humanbelly and Martinex1, thanks for the insights re. Namor's ability to breathe underwater. As much as I love superhero and sci-fi comics, as a biologist I do have a nerdlingerish need for the pseudo-science to make at least some superficial kind of sense.
All marine mammals need to hold their breath when submerged -- whales, dolphins, seals, manatees etc; they all have lungs, not gills. For this reason, I'd prefer that Namor (and Aquaman for that matter) do not have gills.
I like the 'Abyss' solution that Humanbelly mentioned: lungs to "breathe" oxygenated fluid.
I can live with that, thanks HB!
Furthermore, I loathe the idea of Hank Pym being a wife-beater. Heroes do not beat their wives. I'm also not comfortable with the concept of Tony Stark being a drunkard; nor, especially, an arms dealer.
Stan Lee always said the original Marvel heroes were "flawed", but they weren't really.
It wasn't as if Johnny Storm vandalized bus shelters or Peter Parker cheated on exams. They were good, honest guys who could always be counted on to do the right thing -- except for that one time Spidey let the thief get away.
Sure, heroes can have quirks but in my book they will (or should) always do the right thing when it comes down to it.
Oh man Doc D, then in reference to Biological Science integrity, Namor's whole race of Atlanteans (again, on his mom's side) must make you plumb crazy-! The assumption with them is that they did indeed evolve as gill-breathing mammals somehow. Which is simply NOT a thing, as far as I, a layman, can tell. If that were going to happen, dolphins and whales would have evolved that mechanism loooooooong before any primates would have, yes? It would be almost more acceptable for Atlanteans to be the humanoid descendants of some sort of fish or amphibian, except--- then why would the women have mammalian breasts?? And Namor himself, of course, would be a laughable biological impossibility. Ya can't crossbreed a mammal and a fish, I'm pretty darned sure.
And don't get me started on mermaids.
Or centaurs.
Or ANY character with feathered wings sprouting from their shoulder blades. (Mammals that truly fly would almost certainly have to have given up a set of limbs to evolve wings, surely? Like a bat? Not just spontaneously grow extra, non-mammalian appendages out of other parts of their bodies-??)
HB-- the annoying nit-picker in the back.
Humanbelly
Oh man, and those tiny little AVIAN wings on his ankles....that RANKLES!!!
Don't get me wrong, Fantastic Four Annual #1 where Namor invades the surface world is one of my all-time faves...
The Angel of the X-Men freaks me out too, with his avian wings... wings are modified ARMS, you can't have both ... maybe I'm even too nerdy for comics .... wow, now THAT'S nerdy.
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