Martinex1: Let's kick off the weekend with a little game of compare and contrast. This feature, The Brave Or the Bold, will pit comic characters, creators, television shows, books and other forms of entertainment against similar entities. Whether thematic or specific, you can voice your opinion as Redartz and I set these "versus" conflicts.
For our inaugural session, we will compare two characters that were heavily impacted by the talented Jim Starlin: Captain Marvel and Adam Warlock. With their long and complex histories, interaction with Marvel mainstays, and legendary demises, they are today's fodder for discussion.
Mar-Vell started his tenure in the Marvel Universe as a traitorous spy sent to Earth as a scout for a pending Kree invasion. He adopted the guise of scientist Dr. Walter Lawson and quickly started to question his allegiance to the Kree. He surreptitiously fought to protect Earth while defying his commander Yon-Rogg. Sales lagged and the Captain was revamped with a new costume, cosmic powers, mighty Nega-bands, and a bond to the ever-present Rick Jones. Mar-Vell appeared now and then in the Avengers and other titles as he became a more significant character. After some stops and starts with his series, Jim Starlin set the Kree-born hero on a memorable cosmic path where he ran afoul of Thanos along the way. His series lasted a number of years, with no-less entertaining tales by the likes of Steve Englehart and Al Milgrom. But Starlin returned to the character to see him through to the sad and bitter end.
Adam Warlock had a strange evolution as well. He emerged from a cocoon of sorts and was simply identified as Him in an early issue of the Fantastic Four. He appeared in a few Thor comics before being reimagined in Marvel Premiere as a messiah-like entity on Counter-Earth. Fighting the likes of Man-Beast and the Brute, he had some adventures that were fairly standard fare for the early Bronze Age despite the religious allegory. When Jim Starlin took over the character in Strange Tales, he charted a more sinister course ladened with paranoia, tenuous alliances, and social commentary. Thanos played a significant role here as well. Warlock cycled through life, death, and repeated resurrections over the years and played a memorable role in the iconic Avengers and Marvel Two-In-One annuals from 1977 and in the later Infinity Gauntlet storylines.
Mar-Vell started his tenure in the Marvel Universe as a traitorous spy sent to Earth as a scout for a pending Kree invasion. He adopted the guise of scientist Dr. Walter Lawson and quickly started to question his allegiance to the Kree. He surreptitiously fought to protect Earth while defying his commander Yon-Rogg. Sales lagged and the Captain was revamped with a new costume, cosmic powers, mighty Nega-bands, and a bond to the ever-present Rick Jones. Mar-Vell appeared now and then in the Avengers and other titles as he became a more significant character. After some stops and starts with his series, Jim Starlin set the Kree-born hero on a memorable cosmic path where he ran afoul of Thanos along the way. His series lasted a number of years, with no-less entertaining tales by the likes of Steve Englehart and Al Milgrom. But Starlin returned to the character to see him through to the sad and bitter end.
Adam Warlock had a strange evolution as well. He emerged from a cocoon of sorts and was simply identified as Him in an early issue of the Fantastic Four. He appeared in a few Thor comics before being reimagined in Marvel Premiere as a messiah-like entity on Counter-Earth. Fighting the likes of Man-Beast and the Brute, he had some adventures that were fairly standard fare for the early Bronze Age despite the religious allegory. When Jim Starlin took over the character in Strange Tales, he charted a more sinister course ladened with paranoia, tenuous alliances, and social commentary. Thanos played a significant role here as well. Warlock cycled through life, death, and repeated resurrections over the years and played a memorable role in the iconic Avengers and Marvel Two-In-One annuals from 1977 and in the later Infinity Gauntlet storylines.
So do you have a favorite? Who is more interesting, lasting, or endearing? Who did Starlin change or influence the most? Who was more cosmic? And who is more tragic? What are the strengths and weaknesses of these characters, and which would you rather spend your precious time reading?
Whether in favor of the Kree Captain or the creation once know as Him, voice your opinion here!
24 comments:
If you'd asked me this in back in the actual Bronze Age, when I was but a humble Urnfield culture potter (real obscure archeological reference), I mean when I was still a young lad in the late '70s, I would have said Capt. Marvel without thinking, because I was barely aware of Warlock. Also, I really liked the Capt. Marvel stories by Moench and Broderick that appeared in the last few issues of his own title and then resumed briefly in the revived Marvel Spotlight.
Now, though, I have to say I prefer Warlock. The saga of poor old Adam as crafted by Jim Starlin is really one of the top story-lines of that entire period in comics. Starlin's work on Capt. Marvel is also outstanding, and Englehart's run with the character was also quite good, but none of that comes close to the original Warlock saga for me.
As to the question of which of the two was influenced more by Starlin, I think it's a tie: in the case of Warlock, Starlin's saga left such an indelible imprint on the character that he's really the only one who can write him (although I find the decision to bring him back rather questionable). In the case of Capt. Marvel, heck, Starlin arguably wrote the most memorable Mar-Vell stories, and of course wrote his final chapter in that graphic novel.
I did not come to these cosmic heroes with any real dedication until adulthood. Other than Avengers Annual #7, I really don't think I read a Warlock comic (but if you count reprints of his appearances as Him, then I had). What's interesting about Warlock to me, from a relative newcomer's POV, is that his trajectory as a character was somewhat intentional and finite -- especially once Jim Starlin got hold of him.
Doug
Warlock's stories were just so out there for an 11 year old boy that they left me with such an impression to this day. Committing homicide on your future self? Who comes up with these ideas?
Starlin's art was head and shoulders above anyone else at Marvel in the 70s.
Greetings! I loved the green Marvel drawn by Colan as a boy. I wept openly and often when Heck started drawing him (as well as Daredevil later). I was ultimately confused by the rick jones - marvel - avengers- thanos stories due to unavailability of various issues and a storyline beyond my grasp at that age. I feel better now after holding that in for 45 years! thanks!
I like both characters well enough but I think what was going on with them was beyond grade school aged me in the 70s. I remember reading and enjoying Hulk 177-178 with Warlock but probably not getting the whole Messiah thing. I was out of comics by the time of stories like the Death of Captain Marvel came along, only learning about it through the BAB (remember the BAB).
Actually my pre-teen pea-brain was confused by Saturday morning Shazam. So that was my first Captain Marvel - a teenager riding around in a Winnebago with an old guy solving the most mundane problems. Not very cosmic.
And I'm just thinking this - was the Rick Jones idea something of a rip-off of Billy Batson?
Tom
Tom:
Yes, the "Rick Jones swapping places with Mar-Vell" was meant to be an homage to Billy Batson turning into Shazam. I'm pretty sure that when the stories were published, Shazam was a non-entity in comics due to DC's lawsuits against Fawcett.
Good morning all,
Thanks for commenting and welcome to all newcomers!
I agree with much of what has been said. I was always intrigued with Warlock but struggled when I was younger to grasp all of the concepts. I concur with those that said that the character should have remained "finite." I probably would have liked for Thanos to have remained a statue of crying granite as at the end of the MTIO Annual with Warlock finally at peace. I could have even enjoyed if Warlock appeared occasionally as a spiritual entity in periods of crisis when "death" was invoked. The complete reversal of both the hero's and the adversary's fortune ruined that storyline for me. It is almost akin to Jean Grey coming back.
Some other random thoughts:
1) I never like Warlock's short pants costume.
2) I always wondered if Starlin would have taken Mar-Vell through Warlock's storyline and trajectory if he had stayed on that title.
3) I too liked Captain Marvel's green and white costume- it was original and different. I like his new outfit as well, but it is a bit more traditional. I also liked the spy angle very much; it was angle on an antagonist as headliner that worked (at least for a few issues).
4) Likewise, I liked his silver hair better and never understood the blond change.
5) I agree with Tom - the Rick Jones thing is a Billy Batson move. (Shazam on Saturday mornings confused me as well - all along the highways and biways...)
6) I remember the big time hype when Cap died of cancer. I'm honestly surprised he has remained reasonably dead so long - much longer than Warlock.
7) When I was younger I confused Elysius with Gamora. Maybe another reason that I think the characters are somewhat interchangeable is their style of interaction with supporting characters.
8) Where did Pip get his cigars? He should team up with Nick Fury and the Thing for a poker game.
Stylistically and thematically I think Warlock is truly out there and a true experiment in pushing boundaries. As a character I relate to and wish would not have been eliminated - I would have liked to see more of Mar-Vell.
I'm a major fan of these "cosmic" characters and storylines. That being said, my exposure to Warlock is primarily through the two-part Avengers Annual #7 and Marvel 2-in-1 Annual #2. Beyond that, I am not as familiar with these characters--Warlock and Captain Marvel--as the rest of you are, therefore it would not be wise of me to select one over the other without learning more about them. Like Doug, it wasn't until adulthood that I became aware of them to any significant degree. But I'm trying to catch up! I've picked up a few trade paperback collections to fill the gaps in my "Cosmic Marvel" education. Personally, I find Warlock fascinating, to adapt an adjective by Mr. Spock. Certainly both Warlock and Captain Marvel are very iconic and I agree with many that they should therefore be used sparingly, as overuse tends to make an esoteric character more mundane/less intriguing. This happened with Punisher and Wolverine; often their appearances as guest-stars appeal to me more precisely because I didn't know everything about them. Overexposure ruins it for me. I just thought I'd mention that Quasar is a "cosmic" character I like as well; I remember picking up Quasar #1 in the autumn of 1989 and I found him quite compelling. I would have liked to see Jim Starlin write a few Quasar stories, to see what his capable imagination could conceive.
Hmmm, can I vote for "neither"? If hard pressed, I'd probably vote for Mar-Vell, but I never really got into either of these guys. Captain Marvel's comic was sometimes really good and sometimes terrible, and Warlock was too metaphysical for me (especially when Starlin was writing him); I always felt like there was some great philosophical point Starlin was trying to make, but whatever it was, it went over my head. Maybe I'd be old enough to appreciate it now, but I'm not that inclined to reread that stuff.
Mike Wilson
Thomas, I am another Quasar fan. The book was hot or miss at times but when it hit it was really quite good. If they could have stabilized the art team it would have been better.
Mike W. you can definitely vote neither. Are they B listers or C listers in the Marvel universe? In some ways I think the cosmic guys are much harder to relate to; while I like them, if you put them up against any street level or Earthbound hero - they may lose out (in my mind). I liked Nova (when written well) as he crossed over between cosmic and more earthbound adventures. Silver Surfer? I really struggled with him in his own book.
Put me in the camp of not really being into either character back in their heyday. I knew who they were but never really bought/read their titles on anything close to regularity. With hindsight, I would admit that any money spent on Image could have gone to filling in my gaps on their titles. Then again, I have a long well established pattern of money misspent on wine, women and singing lessons.
Again, hindsight, to look back at Mar-Vell with the lens of Lt. John Dunbar, the character just works. Sent to the frontier, spending time amongst the natives, adopting their dress, ways and language. No wonder he was so hated by his people.
Adam Warlock. I was a Elric of Melnibone fan in the late 70s and early 80s. So much of Warlock's story paralleled the Elric/Eternal Champion ethos as laid down by Moorcock. Even the Pip of Warlock and the Moonglum of Elric!!! (There they are!)
And the Soul Gem/Jewel stealing souls much like the Cursed Ebony Blade Stormbringer. Both heroes were finally killed by their weapons. But then Adam came back. Again. And again. And again.....
Okay, gun to head, I would pick Warlock. I guess I'm just a bigger fan of Moorcock.
(There goes my baby
There goes my only one
I think she loves me
But she don't wanna let on
Yes she likes to keep my guessing
She's got me on defense
With that little bit of mystery
She's a complex kid
And she's always been so hard to figure out
Yes, she always like to leave me with a shadow of a doubt
Sometimes at night, I
Wait around 'til she gets out
She don't like workin'
She says she hates her boss
But she's got me asking questions
She's got me on defense
With that little certain something
She's a complex kid
And she's always been so hard to get around
Yes, she always likes to leave me with a shadow of a doubt
Just a shadow of a doubt
She seldom keeps me running
I'm trying to figure out
If she's leading up to something
And when she's dreaming
Sometimes she seems depressed
But in the morning
She don't remember it
But she's got me thinking 'bout it
Yes, she's got me on the edge
With that little bit of mystery
She's a complex kid
And she's always been so hard to live without
Yes, she always like to leave me with a shadow of a doubt
Well a shadow of a doubt
Well a shadow of a doubt).
PS: Robot benefit, they never rebel, they just follow their programming......
I have a scattering of both characters throughout their history. In fact-- hunh-- I think I have both "first" appearances (if you count Him, that is). So every so often, pre/during/&post Starlin, I'd wind up acquiring a couple of issues of either-- but never really getting fully drawn in. In the case of Starlin's Warlock the problem was immediately recognizable: Brother, don't even TRY to come in once the movie's started-- you'll NEVER figure it out!
I respect both characters quite a bit, and I don't dislike them at all-- but there was just always something that didn't click for me with either. I didn't surrender to them or warm to them, y'know? Given a choice, Captain Marvel is now probably the fellow I would go back and try to revisit in-depth.
And, I know this may get me in a bit of trouble, but I'm not always as over-the-moon about Starlin's art or writing as many folks are. He's good, he's creative, he's QUITE dynamic and expressive-- but for some reason I always seem to see his flaws with body proportion and position (this coming from a guy who unreservedly loves Herb Trimpe, mind you-!). He is of course 1000 times the artist I could ever hope to be, and yet it's always, "the neck's too long", "the torso's too short", "the head's too small", etc. Still, he'd a remain an extremely strong B+ on my report card.
The ONE title I bought for a long stretch for these two was INFINITY WATCH. I don't remember many particulars, other than it was sort of goofy-- like a cosmic Excalibur-- and that I rather enjoyed it. Couldn't recount a single story arc, though.
HB
Good question guys. Starlin seems to have a consistent drive to explore marytr/Christ figures.
We have Adam Warlock-as-cosmic-Christ leavened by Eastern religious ideas of the balance between opposites.
And we have Mar-Vell as the first major hero to die at the hands of a very human disease.
Both characters have had a more profound impact (esp. in Starlin's hands) than their sales suggest. I'm personally drawn to Adam Warlock but that's probably my high-concept/mystical self talking.
Most appearances by both characters sit in my 3,000+ issue pile of yet-to-be read comics *sigh*
Interesting topic. I was a big Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) fan. I thought he was pretty much Marvel's quintessential "superhero". He had a cool costume and cool powers. He was like a not so overpowered version of Superman (which I prefer).
He was a very versatile character which Marvel tragically underutilized, and then even more tragically killed him off. A sad end to what should have been one of their most iconic and enduring heroes. I mean he was called Captain "MARVEL" for cripes sake!
He should have been a regular Avenger and had a top creative team working on his series to increase his exposure and popularity.
I am in the minority of people who didn't enjoy the story of his death. No matter how tragic and sad and dramatic it was, it was still a total waste of an awesome character with tons of potential.
I especially hated the way Starlin ret-conned his cancer all the way back to issue #36 (I think) of his solo comic so that every story that came after that is depressing for the fact that he was doomed and didn't know it. That's no way to treat a great hero.
Growing up I was aware of Mar-Vell before I knew of Adam, so that first impression sways my vote to Marv. My first impression of Marv was towards the end of his series shortly after Rick and him were freed from their odd bonding. Personally I loved the nega bands and was sad that that had happened in earlier issues. So here was this alien trying to adjust to life on Earth and doing a poor job of it. That simple concept appealed to me.
Adam was very interesting visually when I became aware of him, but his story arc felt over wrought to me. Maybe that has more to do with Starlin than the character. For example, I prefer the Peter David issues of Dreadstar over the Starlin ones. Plus Starlin seems to try too hard in my opinion. Another strike against Adam was that he was dead when I first knew of him. Here was a character that was finite. Marv was still alive and well when I first knew of him.
Not much I can add, I'm in a bit of a rush. Two of my favorite characters and in many ways, quite different. One guy seemed to handle life much better than the other guy, to put it in a very droll sort of way. But when I was a kid, all I cared about was the cosmic stuff. I was a nut for all things outer space, and some people thought I was a nut FROM outer space. My first visit to this blog, and it's great! Right up my ally! Kudos!
M.P.
Thanks M.P; glad to have you with us!
My choice today would be Warlock, primarily on the strength of the Strange Tales issues Starlin produced. Those stories floored me as a teenage reader, and loved the artwork. It had Cosmic written all over it (literally as well as figuratively, anyone recall Starlin's little "Cosmic Code Authority" stunt?}.
Add on the classic Avengers/Marvel Two-in-One Annual story, and it's an easy choice for me. Not to diss Mar-Vell; I enjoyed many of his tales as well. His death still brings a moistness to the corner of my eye. But all told, Warlock just felt more...significant, perhaps.
Oh, and Partner- regarding Pip's cigars, he probably got them from the same inter-dimensional supplier that Howard the Duck frequented..."Stellar Stogies" anyone?
The Cigar comments are sending my mind off on a bit of a tangent. And I'd wondered the exact same thing about Pip's. Surely they couldn't be actual cigars from Earth?? The simple disbelief-stretching logistics of that alone boggle the mind. . . heh. I suppose on chalks it up to cosmic comic literary license. . .
But even with so many characters for whom a chomped cigar is a trademark (Nick Fury, HTD, Pip, Thunderbolt Ross, JJJameson for a good while, Ben Grimm as well on occassion. . . ), it's always existed as a visual reality in comics, but not as an olfactory one. I'm not sure if many of us 'round here are cigar smokers, but YEESH!, sharing a room with those things is BRUTAL! The most common response you'd really be seeing most situations would be "Get the foul thing OUT of here!!" Heck, I was a waiter in a tavern in the days before there were even non-smoking sections at all, and the owner would come out and insist that a patron extinguish a cigar if they lit it up-- or invite them to depart. . .
HB
I think it was Jack Kirby constantly chewing on those cigars (or as my brother calls 'em, "dog-rockets" or "turd-smokes") that prompted the widespread cigar smoking in the Marvel Universe. Starlin once said that Pip was modeled on Kirby, except for the sexual deviancy, which Starlin added himself to flesh out the character and give him depth.
M.P.
By the way, I like that you included the cover to that issue of Marvel 2-in-1 in the post. That was actually the first comic I had in which Warlock appeared (well, his body anyway). And that 3-parter was a pretty good story.
very sad about no more BAB Karen comments, but I only bothered 2 try to break into comics because of Wendy Peni. But, also, because of Starlin's Warlock, going beyond what Marvel would allow in a 'standard' manner, in terms of narrative; of 'spiderman manhattan scope', vs "Cosmic Scope'. So I choose Warlock. Because he opened 'the cosmic doors' to better things in comics, not just for scripts, but also but layouts, panel-composition, and most importantly, respecting the MIND (and soul) of the reader.
Both Mar-Vell and Warlock are near and dear to me, so I can't not leave some comment here. I probably tip slightly in favor of Warlock, at least up til his demise in MTIO Annual 2. I think that would have been a perfect ending for him (and maybe Thanos too). He has such a convoluted history, going from a modern Frankenstein in the pages of Fantastic Four, to a Christ-stand-in in his own series, and then his reinvention by Starlin as a suicidal paranoid schizophrenic. All of it, in its own way, pushed envelopes, but certainly Starlin left the strongest imprint on the character. But Warlock was the most unusual, 'out there' and yet deeply personal of protagonists.
Mar-Vell always struggled more. Put together quickly to seize the "Captain Marvel" name, no one ever seemed to be able to find a niche for him until Starlin came along. Those few issues -really just spanning a short run, from #25 through 34, were a time of growth and development for not only Mar-Vell but Starlin as well, as he became both artist and writer on the title.
But when Starlin left, despite some good efforts by a number of other creatives, Mar-Vell floundered. Was he Captain America in space? Should he be on Earth? No one knew what to do with him. His demise was assured. Following Starlin seemed to be part of the problem. The Milgrom/Broderick run tried to emulate him, but it wasn't enough.
I don't think the problems were insurmountable. Maybe he couldn't maintain his own title, but he might've still been able to stay in the Marvel Universe, and remain an interesting character. Joining the Avengers might have been one way to do it, although I see him as more of a lone wolf. I do think his death was well done and I wouldn't want to see him come back (ha -as if I'm reading new books). I will say, if you're interested in the story behind Mar-Vell (oh no, here comes the plug) I have an article in this month's Back Issue magazine (#93) about Captain Marvel where I talk to a lot of the creative folks. For a comic with a relatively short run, old Cap had quite an influence. Just look at how many successor characters there have been. The Carol Danvers Captain Marvel is probably much more popular than Mar-Vell ever was. I would never have imagined that happening.
Kitty Trundle - thank you for joining in the conversation. We may have to look at some Elfquest here at some point. And it looks like Karen joined in right after you - thanks for your input Karen. I thought your third paragraph about Mar-Vell's identity is key to the problem of his character, and depicting him as Cap in space was indeed how it seemed. He became somewhat generic as his series went on, but I still really liked him. Ever since Avengers #72 when he guest starred with the team against the Zodiac, I was mesmerized. It was really the one time that I liked Rick Jones as he lived in each Marv's head, voicing opinions from Limbo, and clanging their bracelets for relief. A quick tangent - I always wondered if that was the inspiration of sorts for the dual nature of Firestorm. I always wanted more exploration of Mar-Vell's treachery against the Kree and Yon-Rogg. That aspect always intrigued me - a good man battling the politics of his homeland. This may seem minor, but one reason I liked the Captain's silver hair is that it made him seem more adult when I was a young reader. He wasn't hip or cool; he was more stoic and serious and I thought that made him a nice solo contrast to the youthful likes of Spidey, the brashness of Subby, and the reactive nature of so many other Marvel characters. I thought his early days by Gene Colan and later by Gil Kane were quite good and under-rated.
Early in my comic-collecting years, I got issue #22 of Captain Marvel, in 1972, a bit before Starlin came on board, and it was pretty average for a superhero comic, ok but nothing to get excited about. Missed the next several issues until #27, Starlin's 3rd issue on the title. My then 11 year old self was pretty blown away by both the art & story, and I managed to get the remainder of Starlin's run when the issues were new on the spinner racks. Was rather disappointed when Starlin took off, but then about a year later came his version of WArlock. I had one previous issue of Warlock, issue #6, featuring the Brute (Counter-EArth's version of Reed Richards). I'd also read reprints of Kirby's FF story that introduced Him (Warlock's prior self) and the Hulk trilogy that completed the story left dangling when the first Warlock series was cancelled. Much as I had loved Starlin's run on Captain Marvel, I enjoyed his run on Warlock even more. More pathos and tragedy, a hero having to struggle with very intriguing moral issues and appalling choices. Yes, even at age 13 I could empathize with Warlock's dilemmas, and I also loved Starlin's little touches of humor and his fantastic art.
Oh,and I became aware of that other, older Captain Marvel through the letters pages in various Marvel comics a bit before the live action tv series aired and before DC started republishing many of those old stories of the hero their lawyers had sent to limbo long enough so that Marvel could snatch the rights to the name and manage to keep any other company from using it as the title for a comic book even after Marvel stopped publishing their own Captain Marvel mags. Complicated story but early on I figured out just enough to not be confused and wonder why the guy on the tv show looked nothing like the Marvel Comics character I'd been reading about.
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