Martinex1: What will we talk about today? I have no clue...until somebody comes along and takes the lead. Give us a great topic today (we are 67 weeks in and I don't think there has been a clunker yet)! Get us started! Cheers!
Okay, I'll throw something out there, the bad nemesis.
There's been some talk about how Marvel movies lack good villains, but the Bronze Age didn't always have the best track record of putting the right villain to complement the right hero, either. Case in point, I always thought Mandarin was a pretty lame nemesis to Iron Man, and Silver Dagger seemed poised to be the nemesis to Ms.Marvel, but that wasn't really well thought out either. (She lacks one to this day really so it ought to be interesting how they solve that.)
Can anyone think of a villain who is a major pain, or nemesis, to a hero, but really shouldn't be? And can you offer a better candidate to fill that role?
Awesome question! I never thought the mole man was a worthy villain of the fantastic four. However I thought he could be a worthy villain to any number of non- superhero superheroes. For example he could be a great challenge to someone like daredevil or the black panther. Oddly enough for Christmas time my family got me a trade paperback of daredevil stories from a few years ago and he is battling Mole man and it is an excellent story!
Related to this topic is the misapplied nemesis. For example, some would say Green Goblin is Spidey's nemesis, but I think if you ignore Norman Osborn's 90s resurrection (as you should), Dr. Octopus is much better as THE nemesis for him.
Dr. O - I thought about that. Rogue and Ms. Marvel tussled a couple of times, but Rogue's been a hero far longer than she was a villain and that takes her out of the running. Deathbird would be a reasonable choice given her similar connection to flight, but I just don't feel it playing out that way in the books. Maybe if she were a Skrull instead of Shi'ar ...
I agree with what has been said regarding Mandarin and Mole Man and others.
Sometimes villains seem way overpowered or underpowered for the hero. I love the Absorbing Man tale in Avengers 183 and 184, but when you step back and think about it - he shouldn’t be a threat to the whole team. The same maybe goes for the Grim Reaper, Whirlwind, or some of the other solo acts that threatened the team. On the other hand I like to root for the underdog so it is a Catch 22.
In reverse, I don’t like when Spidey gets elevated to take on galactic characters. Once in a while for added drama —- okay. But he needs to stick more to battling street level heroes. Thanos, Firelord, Etc should not be regular challenges for Spider-Man. On the other hand he should not be bogged down with the Grizzly, Kangaroo, Mindworm and others.
Wasn't Silver Dagger mainly a Dr. Strange foe? I think he and Ms. Marvel only fought once, in a Marvel Team-up story that also involved Dr. Strange as well as Spidey. Speaking of Spidey, I pretty much agree with Osvaldo that Doc Ock is probably his main nemesis, although I think it's kind of cool that at various phases in his history, Spidey had some other arch-foes that rivaled Doc at his chief baddy, like Green Goblin (Norman Osborn, up to his death in ASM #122) or, briefly, the Jackal (also Carrion), or Hobgoblin, or the Hypno-Hustler (kidding!). That makes him similar to Batman: his arch-nemesis is obviously the Joker, but Ra's al Ghul is sort of an alternate arch-nemesis.
I too agree with Osvaldo; much as I love the Goblin, Otto Octavious was always Spidey's foremost foe in my opinion. Agreeing also with Marti- Spider-man isn't really right for cosmic menaces. Check out Marvel Two-in-One Annual 2; that book got it right.
Hi! If anyone checks in today... who would be the best hero to fight Paste Pot Pete? He is a particular fav of mine and I never thought he should have gone up against Torch and even Cap (around issue 108?) seemed like a stretch.
Also, since I've had a day to dwell on this, I do recall being baffled that Marvel would have Doc Doom face Luke Cage. Even at 11 years old I was thinking Doom would blast Luke into next year in a matter of seconds! As I recall the battle may have taken 2 issues like issues 6 and 7?
Deathbird is one of my least favorite villains, I always cringed a bit when she showed up in a comic. It was also hard to take her seriously as an X-men villain when Hawkeye was previously able to take her down all by himself.
Charlie, I would say Daredevil would be the best fit for Paste Pot Pete.
I suppose the obvious question is who would be an ideal foe for Ant-Man? I can't think of any Marvel villain so pathetic that he'd make the ideal arch-enemy for the Antster.
Steve I am thinking that either Giant Man or Goliath would be a good foe for Antie? It would obviously have to involve a misunderstanding like ...? Maybe if I wake up in time next Tuesday I can posit this to Bitba? How many comics had heroes fighting each other because they didn't take 5 seconds to ask???
Ant-Man frequently went up against Taskmaster, which I actually found compelling. The small guy against somebody who could do anything. I’m not sure its a good fit - but I liked it.
I always thought Ant-Man was best suited for stealth and spying and I would have liked to see him go against evil organizations like Hydra or AIM in an almost James Bond like way. Ferret out some world conquering plot, infiltrate the organization and take it down with super-science. He’d also do well against thinking foes like Fixer and Mentallo, the Tinkerer, etc
As far as Paste Pot Pete - I think he would be great against some of the lighter / humorous heroes like Speedball or the Beast or Wonderman. Or even She Hulk or Spidey. (Yes, I can see where he’d be a fun twist for Spidey and may have a nice conflict with the webbing involved)
Speaking of webbing I always thought that The Gladiator would have been a good challenge since the blades seemed an obvious rebuttal to the webbing. (Maybe they met?)
Also though Doc Ock is truly an all-time classic I always felt Kraven may have been the most even match for Spidey. I think I understand that Kraven is dead. Is he still dead?
If I recall, Wolverine's first appearance (as a nemesis of the Hulk) was underwhelming. He was a sideshow to the main conflict between Hulk and the Wendigo, and was quickly dispatched.
I always thought that any villain that didn't have some kind of enhanced abilities (like super strength, speed, robot arms, etc.) was not a good fit as a nemesis for Spider-Man.
For example, the Tarantula. Yes he had those pointy shoes, but that was pretty much it. He did not have any kind of super powers (but I always thought he should have) but the writers still made him a match for Spidey in a fight. A guy who can lift a car, leap 50 feet, has super reflexes, and a spider-sense, not to mention his web-shooters, and he has trouble beating a guy with spikes on his shoes. OK.
I always felt Tarantula would have made a perfect enemy for Daredevil. (Poor DD, it looks like we're throwing ever villain at him in this post).
Speaking of Spider-Man villains that make better Daredevil villains, there is the Kingpin. I think Frank Miller got it perfect when he stole KIngy from Spider-Man and made him DD's arch nemesis. Brilliant idea. Kingpin is another one of those villains that should have no chance in a one-on-one fight with Spider-Man. Sure Wilson Fisk's apparent "fat" is supposed to be "all muscle" (that's what I tell people about myself), but again, Spider-Man can pretty much lift a car, so I don't care how much he works out, on punch from Spidey should have Fisk eating the floor.
17 comments:
Colin! Hurry up and post a question before I am knee deep in the hoopla!!! Lol!
Okay, I'll throw something out there, the bad nemesis.
There's been some talk about how Marvel movies lack good villains, but the Bronze Age didn't always have the best track record of putting the right villain to complement the right hero, either. Case in point, I always thought Mandarin was a pretty lame nemesis to Iron Man, and Silver Dagger seemed poised to be the nemesis to Ms.Marvel, but that wasn't really well thought out either. (She lacks one to this day really so it ought to be interesting how they solve that.)
Can anyone think of a villain who is a major pain, or nemesis, to a hero, but really shouldn't be? And can you offer a better candidate to fill that role?
Awesome question! I never thought the mole man was a worthy villain of the fantastic four. However I thought he could be a worthy villain to any number of non- superhero superheroes. For example he could be a great challenge to someone like daredevil or the black panther. Oddly enough for Christmas time my family got me a trade paperback of daredevil stories from a few years ago and he is battling Mole man and it is an excellent story!
Isn't Deathbird and Rogue Ms. Marvel's (now Captain Marvel, yay!) nemeses?
Related to this topic is the misapplied nemesis. For example, some would say Green Goblin is Spidey's nemesis, but I think if you ignore Norman Osborn's 90s resurrection (as you should), Dr. Octopus is much better as THE nemesis for him.
Dr. O - I thought about that. Rogue and Ms. Marvel tussled a couple of times, but Rogue's been a hero far longer than she was a villain and that takes her out of the running. Deathbird would be a reasonable choice given her similar connection to flight, but I just don't feel it playing out that way in the books. Maybe if she were a Skrull instead of Shi'ar ...
I agree with what has been said regarding Mandarin and Mole Man and others.
Sometimes villains seem way overpowered or underpowered for the hero. I love the Absorbing Man tale in Avengers 183 and 184, but when you step back and think about it - he shouldn’t be a threat to the whole team. The same maybe goes for the Grim Reaper, Whirlwind, or some of the other solo acts that threatened the team. On the other hand I like to root for the underdog so it is a Catch 22.
In reverse, I don’t like when Spidey gets elevated to take on galactic characters. Once in a while for added drama —- okay. But he needs to stick more to battling street level heroes. Thanos, Firelord, Etc should not be regular challenges for Spider-Man. On the other hand he should not be bogged down with the Grizzly, Kangaroo, Mindworm and others.
Wasn't Silver Dagger mainly a Dr. Strange foe? I think he and Ms. Marvel only fought once, in a Marvel Team-up story that also involved Dr. Strange as well as Spidey.
Speaking of Spidey, I pretty much agree with Osvaldo that Doc Ock is probably his main nemesis, although I think it's kind of cool that at various phases in his history, Spidey had some other arch-foes that rivaled Doc at his chief baddy, like Green Goblin (Norman Osborn, up to his death in ASM #122) or, briefly, the Jackal (also Carrion), or Hobgoblin, or the Hypno-Hustler (kidding!). That makes him similar to Batman: his arch-nemesis is obviously the Joker, but Ra's al Ghul is sort of an alternate arch-nemesis.
I too agree with Osvaldo; much as I love the Goblin, Otto Octavious was always Spidey's foremost foe in my opinion. Agreeing also with Marti- Spider-man isn't really right for cosmic menaces. Check out Marvel Two-in-One Annual 2; that book got it right.
Hi! If anyone checks in today... who would be the best hero to fight Paste Pot Pete? He is a particular fav of mine and I never thought he should have gone up against Torch and even Cap (around issue 108?) seemed like a stretch.
Also, since I've had a day to dwell on this, I do recall being baffled that Marvel would have Doc Doom face Luke Cage. Even at 11 years old I was thinking Doom would blast Luke into next year in a matter of seconds! As I recall the battle may have taken 2 issues like issues 6 and 7?
Deathbird is one of my least favorite villains, I always cringed a bit when she showed up in a comic. It was also hard to take her seriously as an X-men villain when Hawkeye was previously able to take her down all by himself.
Charlie, I would say Daredevil would be the best fit for Paste Pot Pete.
I suppose the obvious question is who would be an ideal foe for Ant-Man? I can't think of any Marvel villain so pathetic that he'd make the ideal arch-enemy for the Antster.
Steve I am thinking that either Giant Man or Goliath would be a good foe for Antie? It would obviously have to involve a misunderstanding like ...? Maybe if I wake up in time next Tuesday I can posit this to Bitba? How many comics had heroes fighting each other because they didn't take 5 seconds to ask???
Ant-Man frequently went up against Taskmaster, which I actually found compelling. The small guy against somebody who could do anything. I’m not sure its a good fit - but I liked it.
I always thought Ant-Man was best suited for stealth and spying and I would have liked to see him go against evil organizations like Hydra or AIM in an almost James Bond like way. Ferret out some world conquering plot, infiltrate the organization and take it down with super-science. He’d also do well against thinking foes like Fixer and Mentallo, the Tinkerer, etc
As far as Paste Pot Pete - I think he would be great against some of the lighter / humorous heroes like Speedball or the Beast or Wonderman. Or even She Hulk or Spidey. (Yes, I can see where he’d be a fun twist for Spidey and may have a nice conflict with the webbing involved)
Speaking of webbing I always thought that The Gladiator would have been a good challenge since the blades seemed an obvious rebuttal to the webbing. (Maybe they met?)
Also though Doc Ock is truly an all-time classic I always felt Kraven may have been the most even match for Spidey. I think I understand that Kraven is dead. Is he still dead?
If I recall, Wolverine's first appearance (as a nemesis of the Hulk) was underwhelming. He was a sideshow to the main conflict between Hulk and the Wendigo, and was quickly dispatched.
Late again. Ahh well.
I always thought that any villain that didn't have some kind of enhanced abilities (like super strength, speed, robot arms, etc.) was not a good fit as a nemesis for Spider-Man.
For example, the Tarantula. Yes he had those pointy shoes, but that was pretty much it. He did not have any kind of super powers (but I always thought he should have) but the writers still made him a match for Spidey in a fight. A guy who can lift a car, leap 50 feet, has super reflexes, and a spider-sense, not to mention his web-shooters, and he has trouble beating a guy with spikes on his shoes. OK.
I always felt Tarantula would have made a perfect enemy for Daredevil. (Poor DD, it looks like we're throwing ever villain at him in this post).
Speaking of Spider-Man villains that make better Daredevil villains, there is the Kingpin. I think Frank Miller got it perfect when he stole KIngy from Spider-Man and made him DD's arch nemesis. Brilliant idea. Kingpin is another one of those villains that should have no chance in a one-on-one fight with Spider-Man. Sure Wilson Fisk's apparent "fat" is supposed to be "all muscle" (that's what I tell people about myself), but again, Spider-Man can pretty much lift a car, so I don't care how much he works out, on punch from Spidey should have Fisk eating the floor.
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