Martinex1: Is Dr. Doom the greatest villain in the Marvel Universe? Or any comic universe?
I will let those questions hang out there as we explore Dr. Doom's complex history and look at numerous comic covers. I would really like to know your opinion so keep the queries in mind. If Doom is the standard for four-color megalomania, then what makes him so complete? How do you rate him as a character and as a nemesis? What are his weaknesses and strengths? Who might be up-and-comers to challenge his crown?
As you form your viewpoint, take a look at the wide selection of covers we have for you today. Throughout the Silver and Bronze Age of comics, Doctor Victor Von Doom made his presence known and I dare say graced more covers than any other Marvel villain (prove me wrong).
He obviously had numerous cover appearances in the monthly Fantastic Four mag, and I make no claim to showing all of those issues today. I merely picked and shared the FF examples to which I gravitate. Similarly, the bad doctor starred in titles like Astonishing Tales, Super-Villain Team-Up, and Doom 2099; I offer only a few issues of each of those titles as indicators of his time as a headliner.Doom also made frequent appearances in the various hero comics that graced the stands. From Daredevil to Dazzler, from The Avengers to Alpha Flight, from Marvel Team-Up to Spidey Super Stories, Doom was there. And all of those appearances did not seem to water down his mystique.
The iron masked despot that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created way back in Fantastic Four #5 (cover dated July of 1962) has lived on for the past 55 years seemingly harassing every masked do-gooder that Marvel created. Not only has the character ruled an imaginary European country (that seems stuck in the era of a Universal monster movie), but he has also commanded both science and sorcery in quests that have led him off world and to the underworld.
During the middle of the Bronze Age the villain may have been pushing his limits and outliving his welcome by seemingly appearing everywhere, but John Byrne honored the character of the Latverian monarch when he worked on the Fantastic Four and focused on Doom's nobility and political motivations. One of my favorite Byrne stories is from the FF anniversary issue #236 in which Doom created a small puppet world into which the heroes were transported. And if you think his mystique was not far reaching, there was even a follow-up to that tale in an issue of The Micronauts #41.
Byrne and Chris Claremont, at the peak of their careers, got into an in story feud regarding the character of Doom. Claremont, in Uncanny X-Men #145 and#146, partnered the Latverian monarch with Arcade, and the game-running clown did not treat Doom with proper respect. He even struck a match on Doom's armor.
Byrne felt this was out of line and diminished the villain he was using while he was the auteur of Fantastic Four. So he had the real Doom destroy the Doombot that would not stand up to such indignity. Needless to say, Doom's notoriety and infamy increased in that era.
So it is time to play the $1 Doctor Doom Challenge. Take a look at the dozens of covers shown below. Each features our star antagonist, Doctor Doom. You can choose four (4) regular mags from this internet spinner rack or two (2) collections or treasuries for your imaginary dollar. Which picks do you make and why? And remember, as you give your reasoning, to share your insights about Doctor Doom and his long history at Marvel Comics. Was he the greatest Marvel villain ever created? Why or why not? And how does he compare to the entire pantheon of comic villains?
So for the length of this task and conversation, you're Doomed! Enjoy the experience BitBA fans!
As an added bonus, here are two colored John Byrne art commissions that I stumbled across while researching Doom. Wouldn't you have liked to have seen these in a full story? Feast your eyes! Cheers all!
17 comments:
Charlie actually has 4 favorites and refuses to be drawn in by the sumptuous buffet and start sampling everything!
1) Hulk 144 - Not b/c of Doom per se but b/c the look on Hulk's face is one of "I'm going to blast Doom's face into the next galaxy on this punch!" And who else, but Doom, deserves to have his face knocked into the next galaxy?
2)Allow me to somewhat contradict myself and appreciate FF 116 where Doom helps save the world at the request of Sue. I was around 11 years old when I read this and the thought of a bad guy helping a good guy always stuck with me since it was profound for my age. Also, something about good Reed's good wife meeting with bad Doom was profound to me too.
3 and 4) FF 84 and Avengers 25 - I simply have always, always liked the two covers.
Well, I was going to say Dr. Doom was NOT necessarily the greatest villain, as I think Magneto and Kingpin have had some fantastic stories about them, and over at DC Darkseid and Lex Luthor are pretty tough acts to beat.
But darned if that incredible batch of covers hasn't swayed me. He MUST be the greatest with so many iconic issues!
While I always thought he was pretty cool, it was the John Byrne run in FF that made me a believer. Byrne brought him back as the antagonist 5 times in a 5-year run, and I enjoyed every single time. Perhaps never moreso than that #258 day-in-the-life-of-DOOM issue. Too fascinating.
And what the heck, before I go I'll just mention how much I loved that original volume of Bring on the Bad Guys! Got it autographed a few years ago by Stan the Man himself! Excelsior!!
-david p.
Does anyone know the FF issue for the last picture? Where all of the FF fight Doom in Latveria ? Or if not the issue, who might be the penciller?
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kj34CU7OfAs/Wf6rYBKV_mI/AAAAAAAAGM4/jXntj5hjzAIVJr7qq7rX9xprJ46lVTZ1wCEwYBhgL/s1600/7.jpg
Chim - that is a John Byrne piece that was done as a commission for some lucky recipient. It is not from a published Marvel work. You should check out Byrne’s site byrnerobotics.com and in the “Galleries” are numerous commissions that are fun to explore. Doom appears in many.
David P. - I’m glad you were swayed, but Magneto, Kingpin, Lex and Darkseid are definite contenders - and maybe more so in the Bronze Age and beyond. Definitely Magneto made more appearances as the X-Men popularity rose, and the same for Kingpin with those titanic tales in DD under Miller. Doom may be at a modern disadvantage being tied to the FF who don’t even have a book now. And let’s be honest, the appearances of Doom on the silver screen have been lackluster at best. They totally missed the mark on film. I’m not sure why they feel the need to change iconic characters and motivations. Here is hoping Marvel gets that franchise back sometime soon.
CH47 - I like your decisiveness. FF84 is a favorite of mine as well. I like all of the Giant Dooms towering over Latveria images. Both Kirby and Byrne handled those nicely. I took a closer look at that Hulk image as well. Cheers!
I am always amazed (in a good way!) what a difference a few years makes to this passion of ours.
I am a late-silver / early-bronze dude... I started "reading" comics around 1968 not to mention the intake of jazzy Spidey cartoons, black and white Supes from the 1950s, and such.
So, b/c I punched out around 1975-ish, guys like Kingpin and Magneto really weren't yet in the pantheon of supreme bad guys. Basically that was occupied by the unholy triumverate of Doom, Luthor, and perhaps Braniac.
In a way I'm jealous of you guys who really got to live through the genius of Byrne, Claremont, Miller, Perez runs... I am slowly filling in that gap thanks to y'all!
Poor Charlie was stuck with Lee and Thomas, Kirby, Colan, and Buscema in their prime with a smattering of Barry Smith! Sniff, sniff...
But anyhow, I am actively (!) monitoring this all day to see if the "younger" guys gravitate towards the "newer" Dooms and us "older" guys put our quarters on the Kirby and Colan and Severin!
Martinex1 - Thanks for the info on the Doom image. I already felt it looked a bit like John Byrne, but I have all issues of the Byrne FF run and I couldn't remember that picture. Too bad. I was hoping for a new set of good FF issues I didn't knew before ;)
Regarding my choice of covers:
- I like the big hovering Doom with small FF figures, like in FF 16 or FF Annual 2. FF 16 was actually the second FF comic book I read. And I instantly fall in love with Doom.
- FF 57 is from my most-beloved FF storyline, when Doom steals the power of the Silver Surfer. And I also like the menacing cover of FF 86.
- Byrne's FF 258 cover is cool too, only the hand and the reflection of Doom face on the armor. I like it.
- I never read Iron Man 150, but if I had seen it on a comic rack in my teens, I would have definitely bought it. The two figures look so great on the black background!
Is Dr. Doom the greatest villain in the Marvel Universe? I do not know. I do not know much about the current Marvel villains. Even Thanos happened after my teenage comic times. And I haven't read many of the Doom stories of the last 40 years.
My comic experience started with the early Lee-Kirby FF run in the 60s. And at that time, Doom was defenitely the greatest villian of all. He even has his own country and is an acknowledged leader with Embassies around the world. His plots against the FF where the best. His relationship to Reed Richards and his own weakness because of his destroyed face makes him human. His moral code is perfect. It makes him deadly dangerous and at the same time kind of noble.
I started to loose interest in Doom stories, when his robot armies took over the story lines. That started with the FF 84-87 run. I very much like the setting of the story: The FF kind of imprisoned in Latveria and stripped out of their power. A bit similar to the great Byrne story FF 236 (one of my favourites in the Byrne run!). But all the fighting is against a faceless army of robots.
Doom was best without his robots! And he is best, when he acts as a manipulator. Acting from the background.
Doom certainly was Marvel's greatest villain, and a good indicator of why i haven't read the bulk of their product in recent years. The last times i saw Doom in the comics he was a pathetic shadow of his former glory. Instead of having possibly the greatest villain origin in literature, he's now a villain because daddy was a satanist who beat him, and that's bad, so he is, too.
In the other appearance i saw, he was a sniveling wretch worshiping his "Master".
Obviously that one was a malfunctioning Doombot. No real writer could seriously think Dr. Doom would be in the slightest bit believable in that role. Lame broken Doombot, or a perhaps a published prequel to the author's private Doom/Master yaoi slash fiction.
Yeah. I might be a tad bitter about the wasteful destruction of such a great character. No wonder the FF went MIA.
Man, Marti, you knocked it out of the park with your cover selection! Victor himself would bestow you with an honorary citizenship to Latveria (an offer you couldn't refuse).
As for my selections: I am doomed, indeed. Way to many, Spidey 5, Avengers 25. Any FFs by Kirby (I have the Byrne). But I'll make it easy and go with the two Doom graphic novels- have read neither.
Yes, Doom is top tier among villainry. There are others I personally prefer ( being a Spideyphile, Kingpin, Ock or Gobby). But Doom is hard to dispute as Marvel''s big dog. A favorite Doom scene: Doom chatting with Dormammu on some mystical screen in Amazing Spider-Man Annual 14.
Yeah, we're kind of spoiled for choice today, aren't we? I've actually read quite a few of these, so I'll go with one old favourite and three that I haven't read:
Hero for Hire (where Luke Cage goes to Latveria to collect a trivial amount of money that Doom owes him ... because sometimes it's about the principal, not the money)
Silver Sable (because I've always liked Sable but haven't gotten around to checking out her solo series yet)
Amazing Spidey Annual 14 (the Bend Sinister story, where Spidey and Doc Strange take on Doom and Dormammu; I may have read this one, but I don't really remember it)
and the Triumph and Torment graphic novel, also guest-starring Doc Strange.
I was tempted by that Spidey Super Stories with Moondragon and the Star Wars cover homage; I think I might've had that one as a kid.
Thor #182
Secret Wars #10
Avengers #156
Super-Villain Team Up #13
I've wracked my brains all day to find a good reason not to go with the obvious choice - Doom as the greatest villain/character in comics.
But every look at these covers makes it an obvious choice - Doom is the greatest villain/character in comics.
Doom has everything but a good movie franchise and possibly - like The Green Goblin - a look that will ever translate well on screen. Rather than go through the reasons for his greatness go with the writers and artists who have done such stellar work across such a range of titles and across eras. The stories (and covers) stand on their own merits. Excellent write-up, Marti.
The first three choices above are all important issues in my reading history and the fourth issue was whimsically picked for supreme bronze-ness. But let's be honest, any of two dozen issues could have easily been selected.
NEWS FLASH! I was just in Toys R Us (Baby shower, my kids are too old, lol) and they have Marvel and DC ceramic mugs for $3.48 on sale! I got a pretty cool Captain America with a Kirby drawing! They are sturdy too! As I showed it to my wife (imagine eyes rolling) it fell out of the box, bounced off the floor about a foot high, and not even a crack or chip!
Also, Marvel and DC merchandise are omnipresent. The thrill of the hunt for comic stuff is an artifact of another generation.
Man, I'd love to find a copy of Bring on the Bad Guys for 50 cents...
Thanks for the comments all. Cheers.
Edo - I too would like to have that book ( and for 50 cents). I cannot remember what happened to that but it disappeared from my collection some years ago.
CH47 - those mugs must be made out of vibranium or adamantium.
Colin - I’ve only skimmed parts of Secret Wars and never read the whole thing. Those few issues actually have me curious. Until doing this research I don’t know if it registered with me that Doom played so significant a role. That maxi-series was right on the edge of a collecting hiatus for me.
Mike - I’m a bit curious about Silver Sable as well. I know almost nothing about her other than running a mercenary team of some sort and appearing in ASM. I assume she is a post Bronze Age creation. Let us know how the book is if you sample it.
On the upside Marti, the first Secret Wars series was great comic fun - Shooter to the max with Mike Zeck as a very pleasant bonus. On the downside (at least for me) the series marked the end of comics innocence and therefore The Bronze Age.
Future hyped comic events could never repeat the shock and awe of seeing Doom in ish #10-#12. Note: spoilers carefully avoided!
Hopeful I do NOT have the last word tonight! I dug into my pile of books-to-be-read and pulled out FF 142, 143, 144 with Dr. Doom (bought these at C2E2 this spring). They didn't make Marti's cut but, though Buckler turns in a great performance, the covers don't have the "wow" effect.
Anyhow inside is a full page ad targeted towards WOMEN! They can earn an extra $25 - $50 / month selling "Ice Cologne" and other beauty products for men or women (?). To make the offer even MORE enticing they include RUG and UPHOLSTERY cleaner.
To be sure, this ad was not as kooky as two years earlier with the four-page, full-color lingerie and diamond ring insert but this gets close, no???
I would love to know the success of those ads, if any, lol!
Charlie- that FF 3 parter is close to my heart, (among the first I ever bought upon starting collecting) although it isn't as fine a story as some. Buckler was just beginning his run on the book, and I don't think he had gotten quite used to it yet. His later issues were phenomenal!
As for the ads, I've encountered some similar before. Mark Jewelers, perhaps. Interesting, but how lucrative? Good question...
Hi Red! Don't get me wrong! I'm digging the series. And I have always been a fan of Buckler. I think it is b/c of first reads being Kirby, Romita, Colan, Buscema... when Kirby left the FF it was a real "feel good" for Charlie to see artists who drew really well like when he did some work on Avengers and FF. At that time several less skilled artists were drawing at Marvel and, well, Rich was like a life line of sorts.
No-my only remark about those 3 issues is that the covers, though well done, don't have that "wow it's Dr. Doom!" effect. That's all.
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