Martinex1: Do superhero storylines jump the shark when they mirror imaginary stories or alternate world stories like those in What If? Were the Bronze Age creators creative in their predictive tales? Or is that sequence of events a normal progression of continuous periodical storytelling? Have characters gotten too long in the tooth? Or is it fun to explore these odd paths in a longer form? The imaginary future is now in the past - Chew the fat!
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I realize, 45 years later, that I have Rick Jones PTSD.
As a kid I could not comprehend who/what he was... he was with Hulk, Cap, dressed like Bucky (if I recall), the Avengers, Captain Marvel (red/blue version not green)... I mean, I could not figure out who/ what he was and it confused the heck out of me each time I saw him as a kid! (The Avengers cover around issue 96 where he bringing back golden-age characters??? I ws sooooo lost with that guy! LOL!)
So... to "What If" him... He was already a big "what if" to me from Day 1 in the late 1960s / early 1970s.
"What if"ing a "what if", so to speak, is a "what if" too far... LOL
Bankruptcy of story ideas is my take on it. Although dressed-up a bit differently, there seems to be little fundamental difference between these stories and the weak, gimmick-driven stories of DC in the 50's and early/mid 60's. In a struggle to find something unique and at least superficially engaging, almost anything can be latched onto and given the go-ahead. But boy, it sure seems like there was an editorial decision to mine the volumes of WHAT IF-? for story ideas, doesn't it?
And these in particular aren't all equally bad.
The latter two are awful, IMO, as they require you to seriously un-believe aspects of stories that the reader had trusted to be true at the time (although I'm not really familiar with the Spider-Gwen thingy). These are betrayals on the part of the narrative itself, which I doubt anyone at Marvel has a remote understanding of. I'm sure that's too literary a concern for them at this point.
Jane Foster/Thor is about half-way there, as you have to really bend Mjolnir's original enchantment to make it work. And because that particular enchantment is weakened more and more as more and more mere mortals are able to live up to its particular requirements. And, of course, there's a difference between Thor the Person and the Power of Thor (which always seemed to get muddy in the past--).
The first two are just. . . "meh" plot devices-- true soap-opera barrel-bottom-idea-scraping fodder. Rearranging the deck chairs on the narrative Titanic. Jane/Thor is kinda this as well, really. It's not creative, it's not driving, it's not ground-breaking-- it's just dull, really. Rick-Hulk was particularly embarrassing, to be honest, 'cause he wasn't even written that well during his brief tenure. Sort of the same "Hulk" personality, but with longer hair and an attempt at "youthful" euphemisms thrown into his limited vocabulary.
It HAS left me coming around to an understanding that, yes, characters who exist in a periodical format of any sort cannot be sustained indefinitely w/ one single on-going continuity. I hate that that is the case, but I'm thinking it's true. Many years ago I was on record vociferously arguing just the opposite. . .
HB
I had that "What If Spider-Man's Clone Had Lived?" issue; I seem to remember it being kind of boring. Or maybe that was just my ambivalence toward the original clone story. It certainly wasn't as wild as the clone madness they eventually came up with.
I bought a couple out of curiosity, such as 'What-If the Vision had Destroyed the Avengers' and the 'What-If Gwen had lived'.
I recall both were actually interesting reads, but I'd have to pick 'em again to see what I liked about them.
At best, they're a great venue for the writers to come up with a really-cool alternate ending....; at worst, like the 'What-If Sue Richards had died..', pretty dire and dismal.
The "What-If?" comic originally existed to allow writers and artists to explore ideas and tell stories that if "real" would either be too far-out or too damaging to the integrity of the character(s) they were about.
A couple of years ago an old friend of mine who used to read comics with me as a kid (but gave them up when he hit his late teens) asked me what was going on with comic books these days. And I actually told him they weren't worth reading anymore because (and I quote) "All comics are like What-If stories now."
Marvel used to care about the integrity of their characters, and the continuity of their narrative. But no longer. They betray the reader's trust at every turn, and now mostly publish trash that is tantamount to "fan fiction". It seems whatever stupid idea pops into someone's head they will approve it. (No matter how damaging to the character or their fictional universe as a whole).
This has made it impossible to follow a favorite character, or care about them in any way. Because why should the reader care what happens to Spider-Man, or Captain America, or Thor, or Iron Man, or the FF, etc. if Marvel doesn't care themselves?
So I would say they have definitely "jumped the shark" and pretty much screwed themselves. It seems like now they are trying some kind of "reboot" that will make Marvel Comics "fun" again. (Or something like that). But IMO, it's too little, too late.
William echoes my feelings about comics from the Big Two. I tried reading comics from the last five years or so that got good reviews online, such as Mark Waid's Daredevil or Hickman's Avengers, and some of them are very well-crafted stories (I was pretty entertained by the whole Superior Spider-Man storyline).
But they ALL feel like What Ifs now. Even a death or reveal that might seem like an exciting twist in the story is muted by the notion that it can all be reversed at any time.
For modern comics I get much more satisfaction from creator-owned projects with closed universes, like Locke and Key or The Walking Dead (where dead characters stay dead...well, unless they turn, but you know what I mean).
For my favourite superheroes, back issues are the way to go, esp. 70s and 80s gold! Good times...
I bought the first 20 or so What If's off the rack and quite enjoyed them. Half the fun was knowing that it would not be "canon" when I was thru reading, Thor was going to be Thor. Nobody would know Daredevil was blind etc., etc.
I do not read "new" comics so if reusing old What If stories is how their being "original" then yeah they "jumped the shark".
I shall remain blissfully content rereading my bronze and earlier adventures.
I rather take to the comments above from "anonymous ". I read some new books, and enjoy some, but don't consider them canon. They're 'just stories'. But those Bronze Age tales are closest to my heart.
I love "imaginary" stories. What If? when it debuted had some natural variations to explore, though as the series went on it became more and more strained. Spidey joining the FF was a cinch, as we the Rick Jones Hulk variant. Things really got weird when the back story of Cap and the Avengers became canon-- but it's my favorite issue nonetheless. Likewise the totally bizarre issue with the Bullpen becoming the Fab 4. Later ones like Conan in the modern day really had pizzazz.
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