Where's Colin? Isn't he usually in charge of getting these conversations rolling on Tuesdays?
Quick one today, kids - Lately I've been reading the first volume of the New Teen Titans trades and have been poking some fun at Wonder Girl's beau, Terry Long. In fact, I've posited on multiple occasions that Terry Long sucks; I've had no shortage of agreement.
So today's mission is to name characters you revile. And just to show that we're not all-nasty all the time, are there characters who are generally disliked but that you actually harbor a soft spot in your heart?
Remember STAR BRAND, from the New Universe? Can't even remember that main character's name at the moment, but geeze-- he was just such a beige, nondescript, uninteresting human being--- no ambition at all, not a deep thinker, not particularly moral or heroic. Also, IIRC, was carrying on with two love-interests-- one of whom was this sweet-but-plumb-simple "Debbie-Duck" girl who was his primary sexual comfort-- and the other (again, IIRC) was an active single-mom who was pushing him to meet his potential.
And I remember ALWAYS thinking they could BOTH do a heck of a lot better than him, y'know?
I should specify Robin in the comics. I enjoyed Burt Ward and Casey Kasem's performances as the Boy Wonder, but I've always found this character to be kind of uninteresting and superfluous in print.
And that goes double for Jason Todd and Tim Drake.
There are a handful of Bronze Age Batman stories where Dick visits from college, and those work okay. He's my least favorite Teen Titan as well, and a big reason why I never bought NTT on a regular basis.
@Humanbelly, I read a bunch of Star Brand issues, I think your description of him is why I can't recall any details of any story.
Interesting topic. And yes, Terry Long is a go-to character for any discussion of this type. Another guy I really never liked is Jack Norris in the Defenders. Every time I've read those stories, like originally when I was younger and later as an adult, he just annoyed the hell out of me. I would have liked nothing better than for Val to have arranged some kind of 'accidental' impaling of Jack on Dragonfang.
As for the part b question, i.e., generally disliked characters I tend to like, there's a few:
Mantis - yes, her "this one" style of dialogue could get annoying, but she served her purpose well in the stories in which she appeared (and if I'm being honest, after I read the Celestial Madonna saga the first time, I thought she and Vision would have made a better couple than Vizh and Scarlet Witch).
Moondragon - I know, she's arrogant and insufferable, but again, like Mantis, she served her purpose well in most of her appearances in the Bronze Age, and I found her general demeanor interesting in contrast to the other heroes. That all changed, however, near the end of Shooter's second run in Avengers, when she just went full super-villain and began mind-controlling the Avengers and, among other things, manipulating Thor into becoming her lover. There's no nice way of saying it: she basically raped him both mentally and physically. Really icky stuff. So although I'm not generally one of those Shooter-bashing comics fans, he has some negative marks against him in my book for really messing up three characters I liked, Yellowjacket/Hank, Tigra and Moondragon, during that run of issues.
When I first got into Marvel, the one guy I never really cared for was Reed Richards. He just came off as so arrogant. I don't blame Ben for wanting to clobber him every 5 minutes. Then he put his son in a coma. Sheesh!
I'm assuming we'd kind of exclude the Eddie Haskell/Reggie Mantle types of characters, yeah? Regular cast members who we are in fact SUPPOSED to dislike-? Thunderbolt Ross and, even moreso, Glen Talbot would fall into that category, I think. Ol' Glen had the double-curse of being both superfluous AND unlikable. . .
Harry Osborn actually gets awfully close for me. For a good long while he was Peter Parker's best friend/roommate--- but it's not like the writing ever highlighted a particular chemistry to back that assertion up, y'know? He was just always. . . Harry-with-the-rich-evil-dad. . .
There were quite a few Marvel heroes whose personality I just didn't like, where I'd be quite happy when they were taken out of the fight (especially against other superheroes!).
The first one was probably Tony Stark, I never much cared for his cocky attitude. To be fair, as a kid I just probably didn't trust the moustache.
Also: Human Torch (also cocky), Wasp (annoying), Kitty Pryde (also annoying and really out of place as this little kid slowing down my favourite super-team!).
Secret Wars did no favours for Torch, Wasp, or Hawkeye or She-Hulk for that matter. That series had a lot of people dissing the X-Men, my aforementioned favourite team.
Which brings us to Spider-Man . I love him when he's a classic underdog, and especially when he's struggling with his Peter Parker woes, but I'd always get fed up with him when he'd get too cocky (that word again!) beating up on poor second-stringers like Gibbon or Grizzly, or even messing with cops who're just trying to do their job bringing him in. He'd go from sympathetic to full Bugs Bunny "ain't I a stinker?" mode.
Sorry, Tom. I should have said "dislike to the point where you'd kick them in the groin if in their actual presence".
Snapper Carr would fit that description. But according to HB's comment about Eddie Haskell, he might warrant exclusion.
I liked the mention of Mantis as a character many dislike but that also has a following. I always liked her; that may be colored by the fact that I began reading in the thick of the Celestial Madonna arc.
Glad this conversation got rolling a bit. I was getting nervous!
I never hated Terry Long as much as some people did; I thought Steve Trevor was much more annoying. They kept killing him off and bringing him back in the most implausible ways, because Wonder Woman apparently can't exist without a man in her life. I never got the appeal of Guy Gardner either; he was supposed to be a lovable jerk, but in 99% of the stories I've read, they left out the lovable part and we were left with just the jerk.
Then there are characters that I liked at first, but who were so overused I ended up getting sick of them (Wolverine, Punisher, Cable, Venom, Deathstroke).
"Presence induces enthusiastic kicks to groin" That is, no kidding, an INCREDIBLY helpful clarification, Doug-! (And creates some hilariously memorable images: Quicksilver walks into the Avengers Mansion lobby, and has to use his super-speed to avoid multiple immediate groin kicks. . . )
Modern-Era Johnny Storm does get darned close- I'm on that band-wagon. He showed more growth than just about anyone for awhile there--- I LIKED him marrying Alicia-- and then, geeze, would have liked to see it work out with Lyja afterward. . . but no. After multiple re-boots/back-to-roots/creative crap-shoots--- he somehow regressed back to the insufferable 17-year-old frat-boy broh (who somehow didn't have the social life-experience to warrant it), and all character development was vanished.
And I hate to sound like a monster, but-- both of the Richards children in the year or so before my subscription finally ended were unbearable. Made only worse by the presence of that. . . little-kid Doom (whose name escapes me). I've always been fine w/ Franklin in his. . . original?. . . form. But time-hopping versions wrecked him forever. . . and Valeria simply never should have been. Just a dopey piece of forced retcon disguised as continuity.
OMG-- and there was the inexplicable character in the Avengers right before Timeslide--- "Deathcry"-- I think she sorta fell into the big cracks in the MU at the time, and thankfully never re-emerged. . .
There were bad characters that just annoyed me like every member of Team America, and then there were annoying characters like Starfox and Rage and Dr. Druid. It’s a fine line I know.
One character that I never warmed to was Ben Grimm when he was not the Thing. Every time he was “ cured” I was lamenting the move. He just seemed like a totally different character - the humor seemed gone and a strange unlikeability emerged. It was odd. That is just my opinion.
I am sure this is way out there - but Superman kind of annoys me.
Martinex, as a youth I never tolerated Superman. While I loved Superboy/Legion, I couldn't ever get on board with Superman.
And I can say this as I know most commenters here and from the BAB days are Marvel-centric in their likes. The characterizations in the Silver Age and on into the Bronze Age versions of the Justice League are tough to like. In fact, many characters - notably Superman - are virtually unlikable. It leaves me wondering how in the world some people openly praise DC as being "better" than Marvel. For my tastes, I never see that.
The nominations of Rage, Dr. Druid, Deathcry, etc. will be seconded by me. Once you approach the 300th issue of Avengers, I'm at best lukewarm to the series for the remainder of its run. And that's coming from a guy who lists the title as his favorite.
Wendall Vaughn - Quasar. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at Project Pegasus, but your solo series just proved that yes -- you are unworthy of the quantum bands. I will Rochambeau you for them.
Speedball - Do you wanna know why readers preferred you as Penance? Because they had been wanting to put you in an iron maiden for years.
Howard the Duck - I like satire. I like spoofs. So much that I really could kick you in yours. But I'll let Detective Chimp do my talking for me.
Thank you for this unburdening, I feel lighter already!
I usually dislike minor characters that some writer tries to make "happen". Like Kitty Pride for example. Back in the day, I found her character really grating. And Chris Claremont always made her more important to most stories than she should have been. You could tell that she was one of his pet characters that he desperately tried to force everyone to like.
I also find Robin a bit annoying as well. All of them. (And most especially Damien Wayne, uhg!) Dick Grayson is my favorite of the bunch, but I liked him much better after he became Nightwing. I just don't care at all for kid sidekicks. I find the whole concept unappealing on many levels.
Starts crying / grieving when the robot is layed out in 10,000 pieces after being "murdered" by some version of Ultron(?) in West Coast Avengers... (I do admit that scene of Vision in 10,000 pieces is impactful.)
I know its know Wanda's fault that she seems like a moron so maybe I need to vent at the creators who came up with that. They all should be exiled to the Negative Zone.
I can think of characters I hate, in terms of how they have been used or characterized over time (like Scarlet Witch), but usually characters we are meant to dislike are ones I like. So I like Quicksilver and Moondragon and Namor, a lot.
I tend to not like characters whose creeptastic behavior is normalized, so yes, I dislike Terry Long, but also Starfox.
I was honestly scared to bring up Howard the Duck-! His appeal grew thin awfully quickly-- although I feel like Steve Gerber was more likely to get the educational groin-kick from me rather than HTD himself. (Also-- I could NEVER nail down how I was supposed to feel about the weirdly ambiguous relationship w/ Bev. And-- wasn't there a middle-aged, washed-up, alcoholic writer in that cast as well?)
Selenarch-- oh man, I gotta speak up for Wendell Vaughn, though! I loved Quasar's book-- and largely because Wendell's core nature was specifically non-super-heroish. Didn't have an over-sized sense of himself, w/ accompanying angst, and the point was made very early on that he didn't have an innate Killer Instinct (as it were). Gruenwald made an oddly daring move by having this hero be. . . a regular, nice, guy-next-door type. Loved the fact that he called EVERYONE "Sir" or "Maam". I mean, how often was Crusher Creel ever called "Sir", y'know?
CH47-- AHH-HAHAHAHAAA! While Wanda's historical inconsistencies have always driven me crazy as well, my disagreement with your assessment of the Vision is so deeply profound that it borders on Red state/Blue state! Hahahahahaaaaa! (Dude, what would you have done w/ Commander Data in "Measure of a Man" in ST:NG?)
The character that I despised the most? Probably the colorist who colored Hawkeye's legs flesh tone in Avengers 98 despite Thomas's instructions and so condemned Clint to run around in a purple mini-skirt for a year.
Seriously, any character can be considered hateful at a particular point in their appearances. I couldn't stand Clint Barton as Goliath because, after a promising start, Thomas started treating him as the barometer of how powerful the monthly opponent was by how quickly they took him down.
Drax the Destroyer, his main purpose seemed to be to get in the way of somebody (ie Captain Marvel) actually doing something useful in the struggle against Thanos and then attempt to kill said individual for taking away his life purpose of ending the Great Grape himself.
Regarding Moondragon, does anybody remember her debut as Madame MacEvil? Sank a freighter to get Namor and Ironman to duke it out so she could study them in action. After she reappeared under her current alias it took me forever to trust her. Hate to say it, but I completely believed in her manipulations of Thor and the murder of Drax in the Avengers series.
Before I sign off, please let me remind everyone of Chris Claremont and Alan Davis excellent send up of Rick Jones in their Excalibur run. It's pretty apparent that they had issues with him, but handled it all with such an excellent and affectionate sense of humor that it was impossible to be offended.
20 comments:
Where's Colin? Isn't he usually in charge of getting these conversations rolling on Tuesdays?
Quick one today, kids - Lately I've been reading the first volume of the New Teen Titans trades and have been poking some fun at Wonder Girl's beau, Terry Long. In fact, I've posited on multiple occasions that Terry Long sucks; I've had no shortage of agreement.
So today's mission is to name characters you revile. And just to show that we're not all-nasty all the time, are there characters who are generally disliked but that you actually harbor a soft spot in your heart?
Doug
Remember STAR BRAND, from the New Universe?
Can't even remember that main character's name at the moment, but geeze-- he was just such a beige, nondescript, uninteresting human being--- no ambition at all, not a deep thinker, not particularly moral or heroic. Also, IIRC, was carrying on with two love-interests-- one of whom was this sweet-but-plumb-simple "Debbie-Duck" girl who was his primary sexual comfort-- and the other (again, IIRC) was an active single-mom who was pushing him to meet his potential.
And I remember ALWAYS thinking they could BOTH do a heck of a lot better than him, y'know?
HB
Robin.
I should specify Robin in the comics. I enjoyed Burt Ward and Casey Kasem's performances as the Boy Wonder, but I've always found this character to be kind of uninteresting and superfluous in print.
And that goes double for Jason Todd and Tim Drake.
There are a handful of Bronze Age Batman stories where Dick visits from college, and those work okay. He's my least favorite Teen Titan as well, and a big reason why I never bought NTT on a regular basis.
@Humanbelly, I read a bunch of Star Brand issues, I think your description of him is why I can't recall any details of any story.
Interesting topic. And yes, Terry Long is a go-to character for any discussion of this type.
Another guy I really never liked is Jack Norris in the Defenders. Every time I've read those stories, like originally when I was younger and later as an adult, he just annoyed the hell out of me. I would have liked nothing better than for Val to have arranged some kind of 'accidental' impaling of Jack on Dragonfang.
As for the part b question, i.e., generally disliked characters I tend to like, there's a few:
Mantis - yes, her "this one" style of dialogue could get annoying, but she served her purpose well in the stories in which she appeared (and if I'm being honest, after I read the Celestial Madonna saga the first time, I thought she and Vision would have made a better couple than Vizh and Scarlet Witch).
Moondragon - I know, she's arrogant and insufferable, but again, like Mantis, she served her purpose well in most of her appearances in the Bronze Age, and I found her general demeanor interesting in contrast to the other heroes.
That all changed, however, near the end of Shooter's second run in Avengers, when she just went full super-villain and began mind-controlling the Avengers and, among other things, manipulating Thor into becoming her lover. There's no nice way of saying it: she basically raped him both mentally and physically. Really icky stuff. So although I'm not generally one of those Shooter-bashing comics fans, he has some negative marks against him in my book for really messing up three characters I liked, Yellowjacket/Hank, Tigra and Moondragon, during that run of issues.
Revile is such a strong word Doug.
When I first got into Marvel, the one guy I never really cared for was Reed Richards. He just came off as so arrogant. I don't blame Ben for wanting to clobber him every 5 minutes. Then he put his son in a coma. Sheesh!
Tom
I'm assuming we'd kind of exclude the Eddie Haskell/Reggie Mantle types of characters, yeah? Regular cast members who we are in fact SUPPOSED to dislike-? Thunderbolt Ross and, even moreso, Glen Talbot would fall into that category, I think. Ol' Glen had the double-curse of being both superfluous AND unlikable. . .
Harry Osborn actually gets awfully close for me. For a good long while he was Peter Parker's best friend/roommate--- but it's not like the writing ever highlighted a particular chemistry to back that assertion up, y'know? He was just always. . . Harry-with-the-rich-evil-dad. . .
HB
There were quite a few Marvel heroes whose personality I just didn't like, where I'd be quite happy when they were taken out of the fight (especially against other superheroes!).
The first one was probably Tony Stark, I never much cared for his cocky attitude. To be fair, as a kid I just probably didn't trust the moustache.
Also: Human Torch (also cocky), Wasp (annoying), Kitty Pryde (also annoying and really out of place as this little kid slowing down my favourite super-team!).
Secret Wars did no favours for Torch, Wasp, or Hawkeye or She-Hulk for that matter. That series had a lot of people dissing the X-Men, my aforementioned favourite team.
Which brings us to Spider-Man . I love him when he's a classic underdog, and especially when he's struggling with his Peter Parker woes, but I'd always get fed up with him when he'd get too cocky (that word again!) beating up on poor second-stringers like Gibbon or Grizzly, or even messing with cops who're just trying to do their job bringing him in. He'd go from sympathetic to full Bugs Bunny "ain't I a stinker?" mode.
-david p.
Sorry, Tom. I should have said "dislike to the point where you'd kick them in the groin if in their actual presence".
Snapper Carr would fit that description. But according to HB's comment about Eddie Haskell, he might warrant exclusion.
I liked the mention of Mantis as a character many dislike but that also has a following. I always liked her; that may be colored by the fact that I began reading in the thick of the Celestial Madonna arc.
Glad this conversation got rolling a bit. I was getting nervous!
Doug
I never hated Terry Long as much as some people did; I thought Steve Trevor was much more annoying. They kept killing him off and bringing him back in the most implausible ways, because Wonder Woman apparently can't exist without a man in her life. I never got the appeal of Guy Gardner either; he was supposed to be a lovable jerk, but in 99% of the stories I've read, they left out the lovable part and we were left with just the jerk.
Then there are characters that I liked at first, but who were so overused I ended up getting sick of them (Wolverine, Punisher, Cable, Venom, Deathstroke).
"Presence induces enthusiastic kicks to groin"
That is, no kidding, an INCREDIBLY helpful clarification, Doug-! (And creates some hilariously memorable images: Quicksilver walks into the Avengers Mansion lobby, and has to use his super-speed to avoid multiple immediate groin kicks. . . )
Modern-Era Johnny Storm does get darned close- I'm on that band-wagon. He showed more growth than just about anyone for awhile there--- I LIKED him marrying Alicia-- and then, geeze, would have liked to see it work out with Lyja afterward. . . but no. After multiple re-boots/back-to-roots/creative crap-shoots--- he somehow regressed back to the insufferable 17-year-old frat-boy broh (who somehow didn't have the social life-experience to warrant it), and all character development was vanished.
And I hate to sound like a monster, but-- both of the Richards children in the year or so before my subscription finally ended were unbearable. Made only worse by the presence of that. . . little-kid Doom (whose name escapes me). I've always been fine w/ Franklin in his. . . original?. . . form. But time-hopping versions wrecked him forever. . . and Valeria simply never should have been. Just a dopey piece of forced retcon disguised as continuity.
OMG-- and there was the inexplicable character in the Avengers right before Timeslide--- "Deathcry"-- I think she sorta fell into the big cracks in the MU at the time, and thankfully never re-emerged. . .
HB
There were bad characters that just annoyed me like every member of Team America, and then there were annoying characters like Starfox and Rage and Dr. Druid. It’s a fine line I know.
One character that I never warmed to was Ben Grimm when he was not the Thing. Every time he was “ cured” I was lamenting the move. He just seemed like a totally different character - the humor seemed gone and a strange unlikeability emerged. It was odd. That is just my opinion.
I am sure this is way out there - but Superman kind of annoys me.
Great topic by the way.
Martinex, as a youth I never tolerated Superman. While I loved Superboy/Legion, I couldn't ever get on board with Superman.
And I can say this as I know most commenters here and from the BAB days are Marvel-centric in their likes. The characterizations in the Silver Age and on into the Bronze Age versions of the Justice League are tough to like. In fact, many characters - notably Superman - are virtually unlikable. It leaves me wondering how in the world some people openly praise DC as being "better" than Marvel. For my tastes, I never see that.
The nominations of Rage, Dr. Druid, Deathcry, etc. will be seconded by me. Once you approach the 300th issue of Avengers, I'm at best lukewarm to the series for the remainder of its run. And that's coming from a guy who lists the title as his favorite.
Doug
"Kick them in the groin in their actual presence"
Wendall Vaughn - Quasar. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at Project Pegasus, but your solo series just proved that yes -- you are unworthy of the quantum bands. I will Rochambeau you for them.
Speedball - Do you wanna know why readers preferred you as Penance? Because they had been wanting to put you in an iron maiden for years.
Howard the Duck - I like satire. I like spoofs. So much that I really could kick you in yours. But I'll let Detective Chimp do my talking for me.
Thank you for this unburdening, I feel lighter already!
Terry Long inspires the best (and worst) in me, Marti!
Doug
I usually dislike minor characters that some writer tries to make "happen". Like Kitty Pride for example. Back in the day, I found her character really grating. And Chris Claremont always made her more important to most stories than she should have been. You could tell that she was one of his pet characters that he desperately tried to force everyone to like.
I also find Robin a bit annoying as well. All of them. (And most especially Damien Wayne, uhg!) Dick Grayson is my favorite of the bunch, but I liked him much better after he became Nightwing. I just don't care at all for kid sidekicks. I find the whole concept unappealing on many levels.
Wanda the Witch.
She marries a robot...
Has a child from a robot...
Starts crying / grieving when the robot is layed out in 10,000 pieces after being "murdered" by some version of Ultron(?) in West Coast Avengers... (I do admit that scene of Vision in 10,000 pieces is impactful.)
I know its know Wanda's fault that she seems like a moron so maybe I need to vent at the creators who came up with that. They all should be exiled to the Negative Zone.
That's just my opinion.
I can think of characters I hate, in terms of how they have been used or characterized over time (like Scarlet Witch), but usually characters we are meant to dislike are ones I like. So I like Quicksilver and Moondragon and Namor, a lot.
I tend to not like characters whose creeptastic behavior is normalized, so yes, I dislike Terry Long, but also Starfox.
I was honestly scared to bring up Howard the Duck-! His appeal grew thin awfully quickly-- although I feel like Steve Gerber was more likely to get the educational groin-kick from me rather than HTD himself. (Also-- I could NEVER nail down how I was supposed to feel about the weirdly ambiguous relationship w/ Bev. And-- wasn't there a middle-aged, washed-up, alcoholic writer in that cast as well?)
Selenarch-- oh man, I gotta speak up for Wendell Vaughn, though! I loved Quasar's book-- and largely because Wendell's core nature was specifically non-super-heroish. Didn't have an over-sized sense of himself, w/ accompanying angst, and the point was made very early on that he didn't have an innate Killer Instinct (as it were). Gruenwald made an oddly daring move by having this hero be. . . a regular, nice, guy-next-door type. Loved the fact that he called EVERYONE "Sir" or "Maam". I mean, how often was Crusher Creel ever called "Sir", y'know?
CH47-- AHH-HAHAHAHAAA! While Wanda's historical inconsistencies have always driven me crazy as well, my disagreement with your assessment of the Vision is so deeply profound that it borders on Red state/Blue state! Hahahahahaaaaa! (Dude, what would you have done w/ Commander Data in "Measure of a Man" in ST:NG?)
HB
Hiya,
The character that I despised the most? Probably the colorist who colored Hawkeye's legs flesh tone in Avengers 98 despite Thomas's instructions and so condemned Clint to run around in a purple mini-skirt for a year.
Seriously, any character can be considered hateful at a particular point in their appearances. I couldn't stand Clint Barton as Goliath because, after a promising start, Thomas started treating him as the barometer of how powerful the monthly opponent was by how quickly they took him down.
Drax the Destroyer, his main purpose seemed to be to get in the way of somebody (ie Captain Marvel) actually doing something useful in the struggle against Thanos and then attempt to kill said individual for taking away his life purpose of ending the Great Grape himself.
Regarding Moondragon, does anybody remember her debut as Madame MacEvil? Sank a freighter to get Namor and Ironman to duke it out so she could study them in action. After she reappeared under her current alias it took me forever to trust her. Hate to say it, but I completely believed in her manipulations of Thor and the murder of Drax in the Avengers series.
Before I sign off, please let me remind everyone of Chris Claremont and Alan Davis excellent send up of Rick Jones in their Excalibur run. It's pretty apparent that they had issues with him, but handled it all with such an excellent and affectionate sense of humor that it was impossible to be offended.
Seeya
pfgavigan
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