QUESTION 1: What exactly is the structure of Marvel's afterlife and who really rules the dark depths of the Marvel underworld?
QUESTION 2: What was your worst experience (when and how did you get burned) in the purchase of back issues or items from catalogs, on-line, or in shops?
19 comments:
Yes, you can take your pick of Marvel's afterlives - Hela, Pluto, Mephisto, Satan...I suppose they all exist at the same time but in different dimensions. But I don't understand why Marvel introduced Satan in Ghost Rider and Son Of Satan when they already had Mephisto who was Satan in all but name. And if Satan exists then so must God and Jesus Christ but they are never mentioned. As for the second question - in 2008 I bought Volume 1 of Dark Horse's Savage sword Of Conan reprints but I got a shock when I opened it. Unbeknownst to me Marvel's British version of Savage Sword, which began in November 1977, printed the stories in a completely different order from the U.S. original - they didn't do that with any other Marvel UK reprint so I'm baffled why it occurred with Savage Sword of Conan. Anyway, the first 10 issues of Savage Sword contained within were not the ones I'd been expecting to see. However, it thankfully did contain "Iron Shadows In The Moon" (U.S. #4 but UK #1 of Savage Sword of Conan) which is my all-time favorite Conan story (it also appeared in color in the 1978 Conan Treasury Edition).
Hard to say about the first..., was never quite sure how Doc Strange's surreal bizzaro-mysticism world fit in with the supposed depiction of after-life. I never got into the occult or the Mephisto-type stuff.
(Did DC ever invent an 'after-life'...? All I know is Deadman and his visits to the 'spirit world'..)
I always liked MarVell's explanation of un-life being the opposite of life in DD/BW 107. It was kinda bizzare that MarVell was explaining it all to Natasha, but 'course this was 'the great Steve Gerber' at his cosmic finest (at some disgruntlement of DD fans on the letters pages the next few months, who preferred the less-cosmic fare for their blind hero...).
As for getting burned on ordering comics..? Not that I can ever recall in over 20yrs of eBaying. Other than perhaps a comic auction where VF+ is specified and it arrives ratty, with someone's name on the cover or the 'marvel value stamp' cut out.
The rare occasion it did happen, the seller typically refunded my money (or a 50% reimbursement..) and told me to just keep the comic. I always left positive feedback if the seller is nice and so I never had a problem.
Great questions! I'm echoing Colin on how confusing Marvel's hell is... Regarding the burn (A tangential version of comic-book hell! Very clever!) I have too many! My first one (ahhhhh... you never forget your first, do you???) was at a comic book store next to the Naval Ship Yard in Alexandria, VA. On a family vacation in Washington DC and somehow persuaded my family to go inside! First ever time in a comic shop and I walk out with 3 Steranko X-Men with ads clipped out! Talk about going from heaven to hell in a split second... I'm still po'd 40 years on!
I'm sure that somewhere fandom assembled (or Mark Gruenwald) has constructed a cohesive structural analysis of Marvel underworld types. But here is my personal take:
Mephisto rules the Marvel 616 version of hell.
Hela rules Asgardian hell.
Death is a metaphysical personification of death itself, not hell.
Satannish etc are demons and sometime denizens of hell, but do not rule it.
Satan in the MU is tricky. He seems to be a composite of various other demons and/or other underworld rulers.
Colin J - Tony Isabella once got into hot water for bringing Jesus as a character into the Ghost Rider comic. It was a step too far into realism for editorial.
As for getting 'burned' from a purchase, sellers have been almost invariably great. There is just one mystery...during a major buying splurge a couple of years ago, I bought a copy of Marvel Feature #1 which contains the first Defenders appearance. Can I now find it in my collection? Nope. So I now wonder if I gave the seller positive feedback as part of a feedback sweep without checking that I had actually received the comic. Alas I will probably never know. That (probably) remains the only Defenders comic not in my collection.
I will speculate that many of us buy comics on eBay with the intent to "read it when I have time... later...". Anyhow I've kept a rough count and a good 5% of eBay purchases are defective with cut outs, excessive or no disclosure of writing, badly torn pages, etc. One even had the center fold missing to a golden ager. So i always (now!) at least open and review the comic even if not intending to read it!
Too true, Charlie. I'm mildly embarrassed that I may have paid for a comic I didn't receive. It was a particularly heavy buying phase but still...
I know he's not Marvel, but the character the Spectre always bothered me. He was extraordinarily vicious and I'd hate to think that God was like that.
Why would anybody wanna be a villain in the DCU with that ghoul flying around, meting out horrible punishment? I'd be afraid to even lie on a job application, for fear he'd fly in through the window and stab me with a giant pen or something.
M.P.
I never liked the "hell" stories or characters and avoided them.
I "won" an eBay auction for a run of Astonishing Tales, (Deathlok). I couldn't have gotten the box open quick enough, cardboard, packing, bubble wrap flying! Then upon getting a cup of coffee in my favorite chair I began to read them. Wait, why is my finger going through the page? Aw F*&K! The Marvel value stamp was cut out of all six books. The seller said he sells so much he can't check them all and tried to accuse me of trying to "shake him down". I have since replaced them with great copies.
That's the problem with decades of continuity written by dozens of different writers is you're bound to encounter contradictions at some point. Such as which cosmic being is actually in charge of the afterlife (good or bad). I believe Neckron is the "devil's" stand-in at DC. And at Marvel I always thought it was Mephisto.
About the only times I can ever recall getting "burned" by any online purchases was when I ordered a run of Captain America comics and they never showed up. The seller assured me they were shipped, but I waited over 3 weeks and never received them. He gave me my money back, and I ended up eventually finding the books at my LCS.
Also I bought a Marvel Legends Colossus action figure once and he showed up with one of his thumbs missing. And another time I bought a Mr. Fantastic figure that looked like a dog had used it as a chew toy. In both cases I got a refund.
Yeah, I think there's probably a bunch of "hells" in the Marvel universe; one for every pantheon. Maybe they're all linked interdimensionally or something?
As for bad online purchasing experiences, I haven't done too much online buying, but the few transactions I've made all went well.
Question 1- I defer to Colin Bray, who has laid it out pretty nicely.
Question 2- No online problems ( yet). But when I was a young neo-collector, I bought a copy of Silver Surfer 1 at a convention. It had some scuffs, but overall looked ok. I paid 10.00, at the time a very steep price for the book. Upon opening it later: the cover was detached and several pages were missing. Learned my lesson: I always leaf through a book before buying it...
Luther Manning mentioned he never liked the "hell" stories. Neither did I. I usually was aware of them and I have a couple but in general avoided them. I don't know if it was the theme or the inconsistency or a combination but not my favorite. It also tied into my dislike for comic book resurrections. Where were Uncle Ben and Gwen and Bucky in this mess? Captain Marvel? Etc. Not well thought out in my opinion and maybe should have been left untouched.
Over at DC, I agree on the Spectre. I always thought it was a decent concept but boy were the "acts of justice" cruel. Wow! It wasn't even anywhere near an eye for an eye (if that was what was intended). It was like a head for a finger nail. I didn't like that aspect.
On question 2. I once dealt with a talented artist on a commission. He is really quite good and I admire his published work. I sent in my request and payment; he acknowledged it and agreed. My request was well within the parameters of the guidelines. And it just never came and there was no communication. I contacted him to ask and he responded he is behind but don't give up. Waited months - nothing. Meanwhile he's getting accolades, five stars on communication etc - I never did get it, never refunded, just the occasional note "be patient, working on it". He even once sent a note saying he would discount the shipping. Huh? Years go by. Still get that occasional note. I think I will frame the note, stamp "buyer beware" and hang it next to other commissions. It was just odd so I just chalk it up to a learning situation. My nine year old likes to tease me ... Dad you got scammed! That is my only bad experience so I'm pretty happy with the vast majority of transactions.
Hey, thanks for running my query guys! The old man's still got a discussion starter or two in his bag o' tricks.
I find it interesting in the whole scheme of comic book deadness that any/all characters seem to be in a position to be under the will of Mephisto and his ilk. Doesn't seem to be much of a shot at redemption/salvation in the MU, huh?
As to the second question, after the second or third time I got a back issue home and discovered the clipped Marvel Value Stamp, I started asking merchants to please open the bagged comics I was interested in so that we could leaf through the book together. Most retailers didn't seem to mind, and I felt better knowing about any surprises when I still had an opportunity to negotiate the price.
I ran into a few buyers who were not completely satisfied with various elements of my collection while selling on eBay. Everyone was placated, and cordially, usually with a simple offer to refund all or part of their S&H charges. Small price for me to pay to keep my name in the good.
Doug
Well, I gotta agree with the two Colins here - I think Marvel's hell(s) exist in different dimensions or planes of existence, with Hela ruling Agardian Hel, Pluto the Greek Hell and Mephisto the 616 Hell!
- Mike 'hell hath no fury like finding out all the fried chicken's gone!' from Trinidad & Tobago.
Which Hell should I hope to descend down into, once I have shuffled off this veil of troubles?
In Pluto's hell, everybody had cool armor and weapons and seemed relatively well fed. Occasionally however, you and the other damned have to fight Thor and Hercules.
Asgardian Hel seems kinda cool, but I have no idea what they do down there, other than prepare for Ragnarok. Again, you might have to fight Thor. There's also that big dog, Garm.
Mephisto's hell seems like a bad deal all around. You burn in endless fire AND fight Thor and the Silver Surfer.
M.P.
Question 1: Haven't a clue. When Marvel introduced Satan as a character in Ghost Rider and elsewhere after also having Mephisto around it got too complicated for me and it's only gotten worse. Hela and Pluto don't help and Death as personified in Captain Marvel is probably the most potent, but it's all a hash.
Question 2: I well remember a clerk, a guy most customers I knew didn't really care for, trying to refuse to sell me a copy of Avengers #4 I'd found for not tiny, but clearly relatively comfortable money. It was a bargain then (the 80's) and would be a steal today. It was the last issue I needed to complete my Avengers collection at the time and never assumed I'd find one I could afford (even then...let alone today). But he realized it was a great bargain and did not want to honor the sell, but his boss intervened and so I came home with it. As you can tell it still gets me agitated.
Rip Off
Few years ago I bought a Strange Tales #114 on eBay. This is technically the first Silver Age Captain America appearance, although it turns out to be an impostor. Art by Kirby. It also includes an early Steve Ditko Dr Strange, so quite a book.
So anyway, the comic looked great... until I opened it up. Inside it looks like someone used it as a cutting mat -- it's been slashed several times with a scalpel all the way through.
The seller was a major dealer on eBay and very surprised when I notified him about this and sent photos. He was very nice about and refunded my payment without requiring the comic back. I mean, who would want it?
I feel your pain... ! But at least with eBay I've always gotten a refund. Though one guy required I mail the comic back. I always wondered if he would resell and not disclose the defects.
Martinex: Your story about your phantom commission reminded me of a similar experience of my own. Back in the mid 90's I was at a comic convention in Orlando (not MegaCon) with a buddy of mine who owned a comic store. Anyway, one of the convention guests was Adam Hughes, so I brought along a couple of comics for him to sign, and one of them was an issue of Justice League International (a favorite issue of mine at that). Well I stood in line and got him to sign it, and I got him to do me a very nice Wonder Woman sketch for $30 (still have it).
That same day, my buddy commissioned another artist (a very big artist at the time, who I won't name) to do him a sketch of Mr. Miracle. Well this artist did not have a reference for that character, so he asked if he could use my Justice League comic (my Adam Hughes signed Justice League comic) as a reference because Mr. Miracle was in it. I agreed of course (because I'm not a jerk).
Well, later when we went back to the table to get my friend's sketch my comic had mysteriously disappeared. The artist was very apologetic, but he didn't know what had happened to my book. I was cool about it, but he felt bad and told me that to make up for it he would draw me an original sketch of any character I wanted. He said he didn't have time that day, but if I gave him my address he'd mail it to me. So I gave him my address and, more than 20 years later, I'm still waiting for that sketch.
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