Follow the Leader: Episode 88: Heroes of the Greatest Generation!
Martinex1: Cheers all! Can you believe we have Followed the Leader 87 times? Well buckle up because I am sure the 88th will be a charm! Take it away...
A few weeks back when HB and I teamed up for our 4Rs question, Mike Wilson’s reboot request was for (roughly quoting) “Conan, Tarzan or John Carter” but done right.
I couldn’t agree more.
That Friday, NBC News did a small profile on 92 year old former Senator Bob Dole and his role in greeting WW2 Veterans as they visit the WW2 Memorial in Washington.
This “Greatest Generation” is quickly passing into “that good night”, perhaps in our lifetime. With their passing, will we also see the passing of their “heroes”?
Characters like Conan, The Shadow, Doc Savage, The Phantom, Tarzan, Buck Rogers, John Carter, et al? Will there come a time, and that soon, when these characters also slip away…
Prowler, it's interesting. I suspect there will always be ad hoc revivals but will they will never be part of the daily conversation?
But you really made me wonder if we will ever see "non-white" heroes in our popular culture in Europe or the USA who become daily fare?
Will we ever see a native American hero who resists the colonizers a la a Conan or Tarzan?
Will we ever see an Indian or Chinese hero, who becomes popular in the Europe or the USA, who hacks / slashes / outwits hordes of other barbaric / criminal types, not necessarily white colonizers but enemies from their side of the world?
Besides Bruce Lee, who is certainly obscure these days to the under-40 crowd, who are non-white heroes we've embraced? (It's early in the morning so forgive me if I overlook something obvious, lol.)
I think that they will remain as part of the culture, but there's a good chance that they will be altered in some way so as to make them more "accessible" to younger readers/viewers. That seems to be the trend at least in Hollywood.....there are no more new ideas, just old ideas with a fresh coat of paint. I think all of these would be fantastic as created, given the technology available as far as movie-making goes. I would love to see movies of many of these as envisioned by their creators.
Most of us discovered these characters via reading back in the day. I know I found most of these by comic books, but discovering the original books really opened my eyes to some of these characters. I found many of these not because I was looking for them, but because I was browsing through a comic book rack or a bookstore. I wonder if that ever happens anymore? We browse via the internet now, but to me, it's not the same. Does anyone else feel that way? When you can find a bookstore, there's either no section, or a very small section devoted to the adventure series that were so popular when I was growing up, like the Doc Savage series, the Conan series, even the Edgar Rice Burroughts characters. In fact, I can't ever find much that I want to read in a modern bookstore. Am I just an old curmudgeon???
'Frankenstein' was written in 1818 and 'Dracula' was written in 1897 but neither of those have faded away so why should characters from the 1920s/1930s?
Hollywood always needs ideas for films and when the superhero bubble eventually bursts you can be certain they'll look for inspiration somewhere else - Marvel has just regained the rights to Conan so maybe Marvel Studios will bring Conan back to the screen? And I can't see Tarzan fading away anytime soon! Fear not, Prowler, the heroes of the "greatest generation" are here to stay.
"Will we ever see a native American hero who resists the colonizers a la a Conan or Tarzan?"
Yes, his name was Jake in the film "Avatar."
But to the larger question, I wonder just where these characters would "slip away" (A spare room in Mack Bolan's house?) In this, I guess I also somewhat echo Colin's question as to why they should.
I don't have an answer either but to the second question, I think the answer might lie in examining what other characters were like these individuals, but who have also fallen into obscurity already. For every Conan, there's a Claw, or Iron Jaw. Why don't folks talk about them? For every Tarzan, there's a Janu or a Kazar (let's face it), for every Shadow a Phantom Reporter or Laughing Mask, and the list could go on ... How did these characters not survive. or where do they survive and why only to that degree?
Colin also points to the literary pedigree behind certain characters, which I think gives them a stronger starting base towards longevity. And CH questions indicate that in the shifting cultural climate probably doesn't bode well for characters who's identities are tied to the lionization of colonialism, or a milieu which is disappearing, like the deep unexplored jungle.
But that doesn't mean that they will ever go away. I like Sax Rohmer novels. I think Fu Manchu is a hoot. But I don't really think those characters will appear again in those forms, and I don't really need or maybe even want them to.
Cool, I inspired a question! Yeah, my original comment about that was referring to the latest iterations of Conan/John Carter/Tarzan, all of which did disappointing business at the box office, which means nobody will be rushing to finance them again.
I suppose when I say "done right" I mean "done the way I'd like them" (and not just these three but other stuff, like H. Rider Haggard); I guess I'm hoping for movies that evoke the same feeling as the original stories, a "pulpy" feel; maybe that's just not possible anymore, or maybe it wouldn't play to a modern audience. None of the movies I mentioned was bad (and John Carter had a certain pulp-Era feel to it), but they don't hew close enough to the books to feel completely authentic to me. That may be a good thing (I have no problem with getting rid of racist/sexist stereotypes), but it always feels like some ineffable ingredient is missing.
As for Prowler's question, I think Colin and Selenarch are right about the stories having staying power. And as long as the stories endure, someone will probably want to make movies out of them, so maybe we'll get a "perfect" remake one of these days.
Even though it's a different genre, I think the most immortal character of them all has GOT to be Sherlock Holmes, who like many of the other strong contenders cited has his origins firmly planted in literature. Maybe there's something about the "permanence" of a character in a book? The nature of the medium means that you do invest FAR more hours in the relationship, for the most part, y'know?
But man, HOW COOL IS IT that this character has been perpetually on the radar for 130 years? And in very recent years have seen him simultaneously (in very different iterations) in two very successful recent television series, a pair of action films, and a quietly charming indie film?
Responding to Colin's question about why couldn't the pop-hero characters from the 20s/30s have the same kind of immortality-- I wonder if lack of depth or true character complexity might be the reason? Ed.Rice Burroughs characters (esp Tarzan, obviously) had a great run, but don't hold up well with advances both in technology and world culture/society, y'know? Although the Ape-Man has done a good job of staying visible (if not successful). Like the ridiculously popular outlaw/gunslinger characters of the idealized Old West (Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, etc)-- they're just not as readily adaptable to march of time, and become figures from the Old Days of entertainment.
Superman may well avoid this pitfall-- he certainly has so far-- 'cause he and his cohorts are infinitely able to adapt to changes in society-- and because Clark's implacably good-natured, kinda-goofy demeanor makes him a perfect mirror to bounce OTHER folks' complexities against.
Batman could probably hang on forever. . . but not if it stays on this decades-long darker-darker-darker trajectory. Geesh.
Spidey, maybe? He perpetually resonates, y'know? For 55 years there hasn't been a little kid that hasn't recognized and liked the web-slinger. Grandpas and their grandkids are readily able to share him as a common interest. . . !
As I've been thinking on this, and it's a subject that has been difficult for me to get a handle on. For me, I look back at this time, the 1910s & 20s, as the explosion of the "dime store" novels. The time that would also see the spread of the "pulp magazine" and from them, the comics of the 30s and 40s. From Zane Grey, we would get The Lone Ranger and Sgt York of the Yukon. Robert E Howard's Conan, Kull and Solomon Kane. The Shadow, The Bat, The Phantom, Zorro and Doc Savage. Before there was the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Zane Grey Westerns ruled the theatres.
I do agree that the big "literary" characters will be around. Universal Studios attempted to reboot their characters with Dracula Untold and The Mummy but they're not seeing the same return that other companies are.
And the reports that fewer and fewer people books and newspapers concerns me. How will we ever know what happens Prince Valient without a Sunday paper...
But then again, everything old is new again... or so they say.
(Evening is the time of day I find nothing much to say Don't know what to do But I come to
When it's early in the morning Over by the windows day is dawning When I feel the air I feel that life is very good to me, you know In the sun there's so much yellow Something in the early morning meadow Tells me that today you're on your way And you'll be coming home, home to me
Night time isn't clear to me I find nothing near to me Don't know what to do But I come to
When it's early in the morning Very, very early without warning I can feel a newly born vibration Sneaking up on me again There's a songbird on my pillow I can see the fun in weeping willow I can see the sun You're on your way You'll be coming home
When it's early in the morning Over by the windows day is dawning When I feel the air I feel that life is very good to me, you know In the sun there's so much yellow Something in the early morning meadow Tells me that today you're on your way And you'll be coming home
When it's early in the morning Very, very early without warning I can feel a newly born vibration Sneaking up on me again...)
As an aside regarding your mention of Prince Valiant, Prowl--
With this past Sunday's developments, it does look like the evil Krios has FINALLY run out of offspring that he can throw under the metaphorical bus (or perhaps. . . chariot? Elephant caravan?) in order to further his nefarious ambitions. Geeze, what a crumb!
Man, my dad had about a zillion Zane Grey novels, although I've never read any of them. I'm gonna throw a clarification out there for ya (hopefully w/out seeming like a jerk-- which is tough. . . I get called out on that score not infrequently). Zane Grey himself didn't give us the Lone Ranger character in the form that we're all familiar with. He did write a popular novel called the Lone Star Ranger (which apparently was adapted into films a BUNCH of times--!), which almost certainly had an influence on the radio writer that did come up with the character in the form that we recognize. And possibly more importantly, Zane Grey sort of created that idealized Old West with larger than life characters, etc-- which was the launch-pad for the entire Westerns genre.
Side trivia: Lone Ranger and Green Hornet (both created as radio programs) are in a shared universe. Cool, yeah?
HB
(This ALL comes from listening to hours of Radio Classics on Sirius/XM at the shop--)
14 comments:
A few weeks back when HB and I teamed up for our 4Rs question, Mike Wilson’s reboot request was for (roughly quoting) “Conan, Tarzan or John Carter” but done right.
I couldn’t agree more.
That Friday, NBC News did a small profile on 92 year old former Senator Bob Dole and his role in greeting WW2 Veterans as they visit the WW2 Memorial in Washington.
This “Greatest Generation” is quickly passing into “that good night”, perhaps in our lifetime. With their passing, will we also see the passing of their “heroes”?
Characters like Conan, The Shadow, Doc Savage, The Phantom, Tarzan, Buck Rogers, John Carter, et al? Will there come a time, and that soon, when these characters also slip away…
My original comment was too clutzy...
Prowler, it's interesting. I suspect there will always be ad hoc revivals but will they will never be part of the daily conversation?
But you really made me wonder if we will ever see "non-white" heroes in our popular culture in Europe or the USA who become daily fare?
Will we ever see a native American hero who resists the colonizers a la a Conan or Tarzan?
Will we ever see an Indian or Chinese hero, who becomes popular in the Europe or the USA, who hacks / slashes / outwits hordes of other barbaric / criminal types, not necessarily white colonizers but enemies from their side of the world?
Besides Bruce Lee, who is certainly obscure these days to the under-40 crowd, who are non-white heroes we've embraced? (It's early in the morning so forgive me if I overlook something obvious, lol.)
I think that they will remain as part of the culture, but there's a good chance that they will be altered in some way so as to make them more "accessible" to younger readers/viewers. That seems to be the trend at least in Hollywood.....there are no more new ideas, just old ideas with a fresh coat of paint. I think all of these would be fantastic as created, given the technology available as far as movie-making goes. I would love to see movies of many of these as envisioned by their creators.
Most of us discovered these characters via reading back in the day. I know I found most of these by comic books, but discovering the original books really opened my eyes to some of these characters. I found many of these not because I was looking for them, but because I was browsing through a comic book rack or a bookstore. I wonder if that ever happens anymore? We browse via the internet now, but to me, it's not the same. Does anyone else feel that way? When you can find a bookstore, there's either no section, or a very small section devoted to the adventure series that were so popular when I was growing up, like the Doc Savage series, the Conan series, even the Edgar Rice Burroughts characters. In fact, I can't ever find much that I want to read in a modern bookstore. Am I just an old curmudgeon???
'Frankenstein' was written in 1818 and 'Dracula' was written in 1897 but neither of those have faded away so why should characters from the 1920s/1930s?
Hollywood always needs ideas for films and when the superhero bubble eventually bursts you can be certain they'll look for inspiration somewhere else - Marvel has just regained the rights to Conan so maybe Marvel Studios will bring Conan back to the screen? And I can't see Tarzan fading away anytime soon! Fear not, Prowler, the heroes of the "greatest generation" are here to stay.
By the way, Bob Dole is 95, not 92.
Speaking of WWII heroes, today is Jack Kirby's 101st birthday!
"Will we ever see a native American hero who resists the colonizers a la a Conan or Tarzan?"
Yes, his name was Jake in the film "Avatar."
But to the larger question, I wonder just where these characters would "slip away" (A spare room in Mack Bolan's house?) In this, I guess I also somewhat echo Colin's question as to why they should.
I don't have an answer either but to the second question, I think the answer might lie in examining what other characters were like these individuals, but who have also fallen into obscurity already. For every Conan, there's a Claw, or Iron Jaw. Why don't folks talk about them? For every Tarzan, there's a Janu or a Kazar (let's face it), for every Shadow a Phantom Reporter or Laughing Mask, and the list could go on ... How did these characters not survive. or where do they survive and why only to that degree?
Colin also points to the literary pedigree behind certain characters, which I think gives them a stronger starting base towards longevity. And CH questions indicate that in the shifting cultural climate probably doesn't bode well for characters who's identities are tied to the lionization of colonialism, or a milieu which is disappearing, like the deep unexplored jungle.
But that doesn't mean that they will ever go away. I like Sax Rohmer novels. I think Fu Manchu is a hoot. But I don't really think those characters will appear again in those forms, and I don't really need or maybe even want them to.
Oddly I could see Zorro recast as a Native American battling the Spanish land lords in Mexico/California?
Cool, I inspired a question! Yeah, my original comment about that was referring to the latest iterations of Conan/John Carter/Tarzan, all of which did disappointing business at the box office, which means nobody will be rushing to finance them again.
I suppose when I say "done right" I mean "done the way I'd like them" (and not just these three but other stuff, like H. Rider Haggard); I guess I'm hoping for movies that evoke the same feeling as the original stories, a "pulpy" feel; maybe that's just not possible anymore, or maybe it wouldn't play to a modern audience. None of the movies I mentioned was bad (and John Carter had a certain pulp-Era feel to it), but they don't hew close enough to the books to feel completely authentic to me. That may be a good thing (I have no problem with getting rid of racist/sexist stereotypes), but it always feels like some ineffable ingredient is missing.
As for Prowler's question, I think Colin and Selenarch are right about the stories having staying power. And as long as the stories endure, someone will probably want to make movies out of them, so maybe we'll get a "perfect" remake one of these days.
Hmm, I don't know, I thought the John Carter movie was awesome.
Even though it's a different genre, I think the most immortal character of them all has GOT to be Sherlock Holmes, who like many of the other strong contenders cited has his origins firmly planted in literature. Maybe there's something about the "permanence" of a character in a book? The nature of the medium means that you do invest FAR more hours in the relationship, for the most part, y'know?
But man, HOW COOL IS IT that this character has been perpetually on the radar for 130 years? And in very recent years have seen him simultaneously (in very different iterations) in two very successful recent television series, a pair of action films, and a quietly charming indie film?
Responding to Colin's question about why couldn't the pop-hero characters from the 20s/30s have the same kind of immortality-- I wonder if lack of depth or true character complexity might be the reason? Ed.Rice Burroughs characters (esp Tarzan, obviously) had a great run, but don't hold up well with advances both in technology and world culture/society, y'know? Although the Ape-Man has done a good job of staying visible (if not successful). Like the ridiculously popular outlaw/gunslinger characters of the idealized Old West (Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, etc)-- they're just not as readily adaptable to march of time, and become figures from the Old Days of entertainment.
Superman may well avoid this pitfall-- he certainly has so far-- 'cause he and his cohorts are infinitely able to adapt to changes in society-- and because Clark's implacably good-natured, kinda-goofy demeanor makes him a perfect mirror to bounce OTHER folks' complexities against.
Batman could probably hang on forever. . . but not if it stays on this decades-long darker-darker-darker trajectory. Geesh.
Spidey, maybe? He perpetually resonates, y'know? For 55 years there hasn't been a little kid that hasn't recognized and liked the web-slinger. Grandpas and their grandkids are readily able to share him as a common interest. . . !
HB
As I've been thinking on this, and it's a subject that has been difficult for me to get a handle on. For me, I look back at this time, the 1910s & 20s, as the explosion of the "dime store" novels. The time that would also see the spread of the "pulp magazine" and from them, the comics of the 30s and 40s. From Zane Grey, we would get The Lone Ranger and Sgt York of the Yukon. Robert E Howard's Conan, Kull and Solomon Kane. The Shadow, The Bat, The Phantom, Zorro and Doc Savage. Before there was the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Zane Grey Westerns ruled the theatres.
I do agree that the big "literary" characters will be around. Universal Studios attempted to reboot their characters with Dracula Untold and The Mummy but they're not seeing the same return that other companies are.
And the reports that fewer and fewer people books and newspapers concerns me. How will we ever know what happens Prince Valient without a Sunday paper...
But then again, everything old is new again... or so they say.
(Evening is the time of day
I find nothing much to say
Don't know what to do
But I come to
When it's early in the morning
Over by the windows day is dawning
When I feel the air
I feel that life is very good to me, you know
In the sun there's so much yellow
Something in the early morning meadow
Tells me that today you're on your way
And you'll be coming home, home to me
Night time isn't clear to me
I find nothing near to me
Don't know what to do
But I come to
When it's early in the morning
Very, very early without warning
I can feel a newly born vibration
Sneaking up on me again
There's a songbird on my pillow
I can see the fun in weeping willow
I can see the sun
You're on your way
You'll be coming home
When it's early in the morning
Over by the windows day is dawning
When I feel the air
I feel that life is very good to me, you know
In the sun there's so much yellow
Something in the early morning meadow
Tells me that today you're on your way
And you'll be coming home
When it's early in the morning
Very, very early without warning
I can feel a newly born vibration
Sneaking up on me again...)
Thanks for all the thoughts guys!!!
As an aside regarding your mention of Prince Valiant, Prowl--
With this past Sunday's developments, it does look like the evil Krios has FINALLY run out of offspring that he can throw under the metaphorical bus (or perhaps. . . chariot? Elephant caravan?) in order to further his nefarious ambitions. Geeze, what a crumb!
Man, my dad had about a zillion Zane Grey novels, although I've never read any of them. I'm gonna throw a clarification out there for ya (hopefully w/out seeming like a jerk-- which is tough. . . I get called out on that score not infrequently). Zane Grey himself didn't give us the Lone Ranger character in the form that we're all familiar with. He did write a popular novel called the Lone Star Ranger (which apparently was adapted into films a BUNCH of times--!), which almost certainly had an influence on the radio writer that did come up with the character in the form that we recognize. And possibly more importantly, Zane Grey sort of created that idealized Old West with larger than life characters, etc-- which was the launch-pad for the entire Westerns genre.
Side trivia: Lone Ranger and Green Hornet (both created as radio programs) are in a shared universe. Cool, yeah?
HB
(This ALL comes from listening to hours of Radio Classics on Sirius/XM at the shop--)
Happy Birthday Jack Kirby!!!
- Mike 'the Lone Goober' from Trinidad & Tobago.
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