Martinex1: (Editor's Note): This week, for the first time in 63 attempts we had a suggestion for our Tuesday Follow the Leader discussion that conflicted with a column we had planned. Our friend and frequent commentator Colin Jones said, "Who were the most annoying Bronze Age characters that should have been killed off (permanently)? I'm mainly thinking of comics but you can also include TV shows, Cartoons, film, etc." He then went on to mention some of his least favorites... "Aunt May, Odin, The original X-Men, Magneto, Red Skull (etc)..."
While today's column does not go so far as to want characters to die, we are asking a question (#1 below) that discusses characters we don't like and the impact of not liking that character. Although, not exactly the same query, I thought it was close enough in spirit that we might share our general dislike about certain characters in one column rather than two so we don't repeat and offend all of the BitBA fans. Our posts are usually planned well in advance (well at least an hour or in this case about a week). We appreciate Colin offering up a different topic on Tuesday.
So in the spirit of Colin's original comment if you would like to discuss actually killing off annoying characters, please do so. Here in it's entirety... are the questions for today's post as we originally intended.
Question #1: We have discussed before how a change in a creative team has prevented us from buying a comic book (or after a small sampling we changed our purchasing decision). But what about a character change? Has a change in roster on a team or the inclusion of a certain character (or dismissal of another) caused you to remove the comic book from your "buy" list? And vice versa has a certain character being included caused you to try a title you had not before?
For me, there were a few characters that just rubbed me the wrong way. I did not jump ship when Angel replaced Cyclops in the X-Men (probably because Byrne and Claremont were still involved) but I did not like that development. I understood Cyclops leaving after the Dark Phoenix events, but it really felt like they had to shoehorn in an "original" member and the Beast was taken. Angel never did anything in that run and eventually disappeared.
The New Defenders did not seem like the classic Defenders I knew, so I did not pursue any of the issues with the Beast, Angel, and Moondragon. But even before that revamp, I skipped every issue that included Daimon Hellstrom. I just do not like the character and seeing him in the corner box just made me spend my money elsewhere. That combined with Nighthawk not being shown assured my disdain. Nighthawk was the opposite for me; generally if he showed up I was interested.
Revamping Alpha Flight seemed like a huge misstep. I never picked up any of their Volume 2, but even prior to that when the team included Box and Talisman, I started to drift away because they did not interest me.
And though an Avengers fan, that roster change in issue #211 really ended my interest for a long while. And even when I perused future issues, Starfox was somebody that added to my dislike. The roster below would have been cool but the lothario from Titan irritated me.
Books like Marvel Team-Up and Marvel Two-In-One could be hit or miss; again certain characters in the corner box assured my buying or refusal to buy. My quarters were too hard earned then and I had to be selective. Here are some I skipped even though the issues themselves may have been spectacular (and in the case of Red Sonja - a classic).
So who don't you like as a character? Who drives you away from a purchase? Is it a headliner or even a supporting cast member that makes you gag? Who makes you choose Richie Rich rather than a super-hero mag?
Question #2: Bronze Age television seemed to be rife with police procedurals and detective dramas; we have opined in the past about some of the greats like Columbo and The Rockford Files. But there seemed to be a subset of these shows that starred a seemingly mismatched set of partners. Of the "partner investigator" shows, which were your favorites and why? Who got the chemistry just right?
17 comments:
Good Day!
Rick Jones gave me a headache b/c I was too young to make sense of him migrating from Hulk to Cpt America to Avengers to Cpt Marvel to...?
Non-humans also gave me a headache. Adam Warlock's troll friend or Flash fighting Gorilla G were instant no-gos for me. (Indeed the whole Marvel explosion of Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy, et al. was just not my cup of tea at the time.)
I also avoided Avengers (starting around issue 110ish?) b.c of Swordsman, Mantis, and Moondragon.
On the TV side, me and my buddies at Army Helicopter school really, really really got into Magnum PI which arguably was an investigative team with Magnum, Higgins, Rick, and TC. I suppose we heavily projected ourselves as a bunch of playboyish, helicopter flying, ruff and tuffish adventurers with rescuing damsels in distress, lol.
Well, Magnum PI was for a time my very favorite show, and it immediately made me think of another ampersand show: Simon & Simon - which was aired immediately after Magnum and soon became one of my must-watch shows as well. By the way, until this moment, I had never even heard of McMillan & Wife and had to look it up. Wow, a TV cop show starring Rock Hudson...
As to the first question, I have to say I agree about the Defenders; I had already become a pretty irregular reader of the series after issue 100, but that line-up switch with the X-men leftovers really put the nail in the coffin for me. I dropped it right away. I also agree about Son of Satan being a full-time member. I didn't mind him appearing as a guest, but I didn't like him as a more or less permanent member.
Also agree about adding Angel to X-men after Cyclops left. It really seemed to serve no purpose other than to have him occasionally express shock at how savage Wolverine is.
Staying with the X-men, I have to say that initially I really disliked Kitty (which some might see as sacrilegious, I know). She eventually grew on me, but for a while I almost wished she had transferred to Emma Frost's academy.
Otherwise, though, I can't think of any character I disliked enough to keep me from buying a given book. I wasn't too fond of Red Tornado, for example, but that doesn't mean I would avoid an issue of JLA just because he was in it.
That Avengers lineup with Eros really scotched it for me, too. Found the character totally uninteresting. Moondragon was annoying, and a bit of a turn-off. And heretic it may be, but I was not too impressed by the original X-Men; found the 'new' X-Men much more interesting. Had no interest whatsoever in "X-Factor". I did like Cyke, and loved the Beast (albeit with the Avengers,not so much the X-Men). And count me as one who loved Kitty Pryde, and her dragon Lockheed...
As for 'buddy' ampersand shows: not technically cops or an 'ampersand' show, but "Moonlighting" was never-miss viewing for this fellow. Bruce Willis and Cybill Shepard were loads of fun to watch, a perfect match/mismatch of personalities.
I can think of a few that I eschewed from as my funds were limited so decisions had to be made.
During my Brave and the Bold run I said no to Sgt. Rock and Kamandi appearances. The combination with Batman just did not appeal to me.
You could get me to buy any team-up with Spider-Man (SNL) while I was collecting, but when The Shroud made an appearance I just said no.
For Marvel-Two-In-One. Whenever one of the other FF showed up I skipped it. I was already buying FF and was looking for some variety with MTIO.
TV shows;
If Magnum counts then that's a huge yes.
Hardcastle- Yes
Starsky & Hutch- Yes
Original Dragnet was one I got into for a while.
Remington Steele was a no miss while it was on.
Big agreement on that Avengers #211. What a disaster! Since I got interested in comics, my Avengers had a nice core of Vision, Scarlet Witch, Beast and Wonder Man, and losing them all in one issue was too much. Replacing them with Tigra added insult to injury.
I was pretty much loyal to the X-Men no matter how the roster shifted, but after the Mutant Massacre my interest started to wane. Again, my beloved team had a solid core of Storm, Wolverine, Colossus and Nightcrawler, and busting that up in favour of Havok and Dazzler kind of irked me.
Defenders without a core (is there a pattern here?) of Dr. Strange, Hulk, Valkyrie and Nighthawk also didn't grab me.
I wasn't a huge TV cop fan, but Simon and Simon also had a bit of charm.
-david p.
For the first question, I was pretty bummed to see Beast leave the Avengers; I think Stern could've written him pretty well. I never liked Peter Gillis's Defenders; characters like Manslaughter and Interloper were just goofy as far as I'm concerned. I agree about MTU being hit and miss, but I loved #138 with Sandman. I wasn't reading MTIO, so I didn't know Sandman had gone straight, but I loved seeing him and Spidey team up against the Enforcers ... Sandy even throws himself on a grenade to save Spidey's life!
At DC, I always found Jericho annoying and hated him being part of the Titans, but Wolfman and Perez seemed to love him. I don't hate the Detroit JLA as much as some people, but they took some getting used to.
For TV team-ups, I loved Starsky & Hutch (and it pretty much holds up) but hated MacMillan & Wife (and Hart to Hart).
I've already mentioned my objections to that early line-up of the Defenders, most notably to the Hulk.
I won't object to having Moondragon or Tigra on a team, but Doctor Druid and Monica Rambeau were enough to turn me off the Avengers for a time, and I still can't really like any book in which they appear. Similarly U.S.Agent has been as much a non-starter for me as Guy Gardner.
Warlock I thought was emblematic of the downturn on New Mutants (similar to when Jericho joined the Titans) which made me drop the book, but I don't think he was enough to have done it alone. I was already getting tired of the rest of the line-up and Sienkiewicz's art sealed the deal. That being said, anytime Warlock appears in something, I'm much less likely to buy it.
Strangely, Thunderbolts and Suicide Squad and other villain teams, seldom disappointed with their rotating rosters. Maybe it's easier for me to accept any villain on a team?
Great topic. Thanks and cheers!
So much to say.. so little time...
I still want to hear why Colin disliked Magneto and some of the others so much.
Rick Jones - for me, depended on who wrote him. I liked him in ROM (Mantlo) and in later Hulk and New Captain Marvel stories (both written by Peter David). I also think Peter David did a nice Moondragon, while in many previous stories she was one-note unlikeable.
McMillan and Wife was in the same Sunday Mystery Movie wheel as Columbo, McCloud, and some others.
Eros really irritates me. There was a modern She-Hulk series that had him on trial for his creepy manipulation. I’d actually like this see him as a villain. He is Thanos’ brother after all.
I really like Tigra and would like her handled better. I think there is a good character with good stories somewhere there, but yes replacing the “best” Avengers with that strange lineup seemed so out of the blue. On top of it, the art was weak and Shooter was not at his best. Such a downward turn from just 20 issues prior.
Warlock in New Mutants was so unrelateable. His character seemed to me like when they added pre-schoolers to the last seasons of sitcoms to add some youth to the cast. Warlock was the cousin Oliver of the X-Men.
From Terry in Virginia:
Characters I never liked that much:
Elongated Man. The Silver Age back-up stories in Detective were mostly written by Gardner Fox, who, in spite of his impressive credits for creating many of the great DC heroes, was a terrible writer. Carmine Infantino, though, evolved as an artist in the late 1960s. His stuff had previously been competent, but bland and boring. But his late ‘60s work on Flash and Elongated Man showed got more experimental, expressive, and jagged -- perfectly suited for Flash super-speed action and E-Man’s flexible contortions.
I was really displeased when he was admitted to the Justice League. I always thought his wife, Sue, was a more interesting character, especially as she became one of the supporting cast in Justice League Europe many years later.
The best Elongated Man story, IMHO, was Identity Crisis in 2004. The tragic murder of Sue, and Ralph’s emotional response to it, was beautifully done.
Red Tornado II. This was a pathetic copy of The Vision (who remains one of the most intriguing characters in the Marvel canon). Again, totally not qualified for Justice League membership. And when DC rebooted the Justice League after Infinite Crisis in 2006, I couldn’t believe that they devoted the first long story arc to the Red Tornado. In spite of outstanding artwork by Ed Benes, the series never really took off, in part because I just didn’t care at all about the character.
I can’t think of too many Marvel heroes that I disliked, but I’ll offer what might be blasphemy to some out there: I never liked Iron Fist. If you’re gonna do Kung-Fu, how about getting an actual Asian hero? Shang Chi was much better, especially the first three Jim Starlin issues. (David Carradine presented the same issue -- what, Hollywood couldn’t find a single Asian-American actor for the role? But Carradine did a terrific job with the role).
P.S.: I agree that Starfox/Eros was just a freakin’ weird character. His brother, on the other hand, was kinda cool…. for a death-worshiping evil god, anyway
Cop shows:
Although McMillan and Wife (along with Columbo and McCloud) had its charms, I was mostly turned off by cop shows until Hill Street Blues came along in the early 1980s and totally reinvented the genre. Tough, gritty, and often full of unexpected humor. Cagney and Lacey also had some top-notch writing and acting, and the much-later NYPD Blue carried on the Stephen Bochco tradition of high-quality police drama.
P.P.S. from Terry in Virginia:
I have to agree with Mike that Jericho in the New Teen Titans was a lousy character. Same with Gar (Changeling), just 'cause he was so annoying.
Later on, Jubilee appeared in the X-Men animated series of the early 1990s. I don't know if she was created for the TV show before she appeared in comics or not, but man, I found her irritating. An otherwise pretty good show, too.
Kitty Pryde had the potential to be equally annoying, but I think she was folded into the X-Men cast in a way that allowed her to grow and evolve. Nothing wrong with having a young tween/teen character, but you always run the risk of doing more harm to the storytelling than helping it along...
Since she was mentioned a few times, I have to say that I really like Greer Nelson/Tigra, and initially I was pretty happy that she had joined the Avengers. And then I saw what Shooter did with her and hated it. Before, Tigra was always gutsy and formidable, but all of a sudden in the Avengers she's air-headed, flirty and kind of a coward. Then even later, when I picked up a few issues of West Coast Avengers when Byrne was handling the series, I saw he had her become all feral, to the point where she was catching mice in the kitchen and eating them. A real disservice to an otherwise solid character.
1. I wasn't a big fan of She-Hulk replacing The Thing (my favorite member) in the Fantastic Four, but I still kept buying the book until Byrne left. I can't think of an instance where I didn't buy a book that I was already buying because it featured a character that I didn't like. If the right creative team (or single person like Byrne) was on the book then they could really make just about any character interesting. Remember "There are no bad characters, just bad writers."
Now there were plenty of books that I never bought at all because I didn't care for the basic concept. For example, Conan was just never my cup of tea. Neither was Dracula. But to a lot of people those were excellent books.
As for characters that made me buy a book. If Wonder Man or Havok showed up in book I would usually buy it. Those were two characters that I really liked that didn't get a lot of exposure, so when they were featured in a story it usually got my attention.
2. My dad loved cop and detective shows so I pretty much grew up watching most of those shows you mentioned (and then some). I remember really liking McMillan and Wife for some reason. And if not mistaken Starsky & Hutch was pretty much the original "buddy cop" show. I used to love that one.
Actually, DC's Red Tornado debuted about two months before Marvel's Vision. But, given the time it takes to produce a comic and get it published, that is not enough time for either one to have been swiped from the other.
Dragnet may have been the original "buddy cop" show, although Jack Webb said in an interview that his shows "weren't really designed as personality pieces, which is why they weren't titled Friday & Gannon, or Malloy & Reed."
1) It was She-Hulk replacing Thing on the FF that cemented my love of the character and kept me reading FF for a while.
And for me, it ain't the Defenders with Son of Satan around. . . But yeah, I tried "The New Defenders" and found it wanting.
I am in agreement with most others that Starfox is a terrible character, and I love that She-Hulk story from the mid 00s where his "roofie" powers were permanently removed (well, as permanent as anything is in comics).
When Frank Miller dropped Daredevil and Ann Nocenti took over I was unimpressed (though looking back I think she did a great job).
I was upset when Stern left Spider-Man before the Hobgoblin mystery was resolved, though I recently looked back and realized DeFalco did a pretty good job taking over. Ultimately, I blame Owsley's editing for dropping the ball there (though I also think that as the only black guy working at Marvel at the time he had to deal with a lot of BS - so I don't hold it too much against him)
2) I can't think of any buddy cop show that really appealed to me. I liked Starsky & Hutch when I was too young to really appreciate it, and I watched a little Cagney & Lacey, but not much.
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