Redartz: Hi folks! Here it is, another Tuesday at BitBa, and you know what that means. Another opportunity for you to set the topic, start the discussion. frame the agenda! First come, first serve; operators are standing by!
Oh, and here's another little tidbit for you to chew on. Last weekend I bought a stack of vintage comics at an estate auction; many of them were late 60's-early 70's Archie books. While going through and researching them, I discovered that several had stories inked by Marvel's own Joltin' Joe Sinnott. It seems he worked on numerous Archie titles between 1969 and 1974. Below are a few pages from "Reggie and Me" 53 (Jan. 1972); with Sinnott inking stellar Archie penciller Al Hartley. Looks like Joe's talent shows on humor as well...
28 comments:
I love Joe Sinnott!
Seems late to be able to set the day's question, but here goes:
Today it seems like the Internet loses its mind whenever one of the Big Two does a "this changes things forever!" type of event. Yet... when all of us Bronze Age Babies were lil' tykes, these sorts of things did happen.
What were those events or plot twists that occurred in the Silver and Bronze Ages that, had Twitter et al. existed, would have raised a furor? And... how do recall reacting to those events as you came to them?
Doug
Let's talk about J. Jonah Jameson.
I've heard some describe him as "Spider-Man's greatest enemy." And I can see that, since JJJ's editorials played a major role in the public treating Spider-Man like the criminals he battles.
But does did Stan Lee and Co. go too far when they had Jameson financing the creation of villains and becoming a super-villain himself via the Spider-Slayer robots? Did JJ lose something as a character when he became another super-foe?
The Joe Sinnott Archie work is interesting. Looks like Marvel didn't mind artists like him working for Archie, whereas he would've been restricted from working for DC. Maybe because they didn't see Archie Comics as a direct competitor? Or was it because he was "just an inker"?
To answer Doug's (simultaneous) question:
It's easy to imagine reactions of the past if Twitter existed, because some of the letters of the 70s & 80s expressed similar anger. I remember lots of "how could you" letters directed at John Byrne for killing Phoenix, adding She-Hulk to the FF and breaking up Alicia and Ben Grimm.
I'm sure Gerry Conway would've had to delete all his social media accounts if they existed when Gwen Stacy was killed.
I probably would've angry-tweeted at Claremont when Kitty and Colossus broke up. They were the only fictional couple my younger self ever "shipped."
And to answer JA's "same time" question:
I think I am one who feels that JJJ is one of Spidey's major nemeses. And I agree that when Jonah crossed over into Spider-Slayer land, it may have crossed a line. Yet it seemed logical - perhaps it was no more ridiculous than Lex Luthor's battlesuit. Jonah had the financial means to take it to the next level, so he did. It was a next step born of frustration - after all, Spidey had thwarted all of the super-powered hirelings Jonah had menaced him with over the years. "I'll do it myself!"
Another storyline that would have brought the Twitter-house down would have been the Fantastic Four storyline involving Reed, Sue, and the manifestation of Franklin's powers - which resulted in Reed basically shutting the child's mind down -, followed by Sue taking up with Namor (which had a nifty resolution, by the way).
Doug
Those are some pretty good examples, J.A.
I'd nominate the obvious one that is the Ms. Marvel/Marcus story-line from Avengers 200. At the time, I thought it was a pretty facile way to explain that turn in their relationship ... mind control! I confess I did see it as stranger and ickier than other instances of mind control, but young me didn't feel the outrage which would now accompany it.
In regard to JA's question:
Does anyone else sees a connection between J.J. Jameson and Stan Lee. Both look similar: tall guys, they take all space and attention, both are moustached and maybe Steve Ditko had similar problems with Stan Lee as Jack Kirby had: Stan Lee took all the fame.
Yeah, I think a lot of the famous deaths (Phoenix, Gwen, Elektra) would've caused some online havoc. (In real life, people sent snail mail death threats over Phoenix and Elektra.) I think Secret Wars would've caused quite a stir online too; people are still debating it 35 years later, so I can only imagine the reaction if the internet was a thing back then. Same with Crisis, and probably Byrne's Superman revamp.
As for JJJ, I like him better as an annoyance than an outright villain. What bugs me is how inconsistent his character is; some writers have him as a thorn in Spidey's side, others portray him almost as an evil mastermind. If Jonah wants to finance villains, isn't he in the same category as Justin Hammer, Tinkerer, or Norman Osborn? But JJJ never had to pay for his crimes (unless you count resigning from the Bugle when Hobgoblin threatened to blackmail him, but that didn't last long anyway).
Yeah, I can think of many events that would have caused social media explosions back in the day - as Mike W. noted, as it was fans did send hate mail in response to some of the big hocking stories of the time.
And I have to say, Avengers #200 also occurred to me, and I would like to think that fans would have responded negatively to the 'ick' factor that Selenarch mentioned. However, judging by what we've seen in recent years, I'm afraid that if a few fans (esp. if they were girls/women) complained about the horrible way Ms. Marvel was treated, there would have been an instantaneous backlash from the dudebros of the time, calling them uptight man-hating feminists or whatnot (with the accompanying threats of physical violence).
I am firmly convinced that, all other things being equal, Conway and/or Lee would have been fired for killing Gwen Stacy, assuming Marvel had been part of a publicly-traded company. Most likely Lee for incompetent management.
Had Lee been fired, and Conway stayed on, and then written the brain-dead Franklin Richards and impending divorce of Reed and Sue, I think the sh!t storm that caused (I assume) would have led to Conway being finally dismissed as well.
I mean Lee / Conway did serious damage to Marvel's two most valued properties, IMHO. (But I don't have sales figures to back that up, and in the end money talks.)
Digressing, I think this is one of the those "had to have been there" to appreciate the scope and impact this had. Truly, 45 years later, I see MJ as just a "fill in" for Gwen until Gwen is somehow revived.
Intriguing comments, everyone...
To answer our two questions:
Spidey's black costume change would probably have brought out a firestorm of comment; if memory serves it was fairly controversial at the time. And the Oneal / Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow run; bet it would have generated some heated comment on both sides of the political aisle.
As for J.A.'s JJJ question; I always loved ol' Jonah. He's been a perfect foil for Peter Parker in both his incarnations. Yes, his involvement with the Scorpion, Human Fly and Spider-Slayers probably should have landed him in some legal trouble. I recall JJJ flying urgently to Paris after the replacement Mysterio threatened to reveal his participation in the events of ASM 141-2. On the other hand, Jonah has had some vulnerable moments. Think of ASM 52, with Jameson cold, wet and afraid, facing death with Spider-man at the hands of the Kingpin...
CH47-- To be perfectly honest, I don't think Gwen's death nor the train-wreck of Reed brain-killing Franklin (and the ensuing dissolving of Reed & Sue's marriage. . . for a time) had any negative effect on sales at all. As horrified and distraught as my pals and I were, I gotta say that it sucked us into the titles all the more-- the gambit worked. Which is rather unfortunate in the historical sense, 'cause it set an AWFUL precedent that several decades later turn into Marvel's "A death every month" policy/gimmick (after I'd stopped buying new comics, thank the lord. . . ).
Peter & MJ's wedding, anyone? (I remain a staunch fan of that development, btw. Totally loved it.)
Hey, hey, hey--!! HOW WOULD DUMPING THE ORIGINAL AVENGERS TEAM FOR CAP'S KOOKY QUARTET HAVE FARED IN THE INTERNET AGE?? Huh?? There's a good one--- and from 'WAY back! Can you imagine the blistering, withering outcry from modern-day-type rabid fansters about THAT move?? Aaaaah-hahahahaha!
And one that actually might have gotten more notice would have been the death (assumed to be real at the time) of Professor X in the X-Men's original run. Heck, I'm pretty sure most folks weren't even aware that it happened. . .
HB
Well HB - my caveat is "if sales were negatively affected in a significant way" a profit-sensitive company would likely have fired Lee and / or Conway. And, I don't know how Spidey's or FF's sales fared after Conway worked his magic. But I think we agree the digital world would have been on fire with commentary!
I think in my mind there are limits to how much pain one can bear? Spidey experienced Captain Stacy's death, Harry's drug overdose, incessant abuse from JJJ, Flash Thomson (to a point), etc. I mean, he even grew 4 extra arms b/c he was trying to lose his powers in order to marry Gwen. So the death of Gwen was the end of the line... a tragedy too far.
HB- Good call on the "kooky quartet". Imagine how that would hit the internet now with everyone accustomed to the powerhouse lineup of the MCU. Oh, and I too liked the Pete/MJ marriage. It was problematic at times, but sure led to some fine stories.
Charlie- it would be interesting to see the sales figures on ASM over the course of the title's history. I certainly don't know, but I seem to recall reading that the sales increased through the 70's. You're right, Peter had a load of heartbreak through the years, and that period was one of the toughest for him. Gwen's death would surely have 'broken the internet'. Must admit (as mentioned in response to HB's comment) that I greatly approved of the Peter/MJ relationship. Her character underwent incredible growth over the years...
Since the topic came up, I have to say that I've always been a fan of the Peter/MJ relationship - maybe it's because I came into comics after Gwen had already died, but to me MJ has always been the Lois to Peter's Clark/Superman.
As for JJJ (since I realized I didn't address the question in my first comment), I like him as the perennial thorn in Spidey's side, who's also occasionally a kind of gruff uncle to Peter. Maybe the Spider-slayer episodes pushed it too far, but as Doug noted, they sort of made sense in comic-book logic kind of way, and mostly they were entertaining stories.
Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting to mention that I really like the panels from the Reggie comic you posted, Red. Sinnot's inks really makes those images pop.
Otherwise, I have to say that it's interesting to see art by guys we're used to seeing in the superhero comics in Archie books. Recently I've been reading through some of the many Archie digests I've purchased on the cheap in recent months (stuff like 75 Years, 75 Stories, the various Best of volumes, etc. all published a few years ago for the big anniversary), and noticed some stories from the 1990s drawn by Gene Colan, and some from the early 00s by Joe Staton, as well as Al Milgrom doing inks and even John Workman on the lettering.
Goin' down the Spidey rabbit-hole (spider-hole?) just a touch farther-- 'cause I do appreciate that C-Horse has a well-supported & articulated opinion on the other side of the coin-- I think we older fansters on the whole, while being DEVASTATED by Gwen's death, do have a bit of amnesia about how hopelessly stuck the character and the relationship were at that very moment. Gwen had been LONG-mired in a state of truly rabid hatred for Spider-Man (at one point literally stating, "The only thing stronger than my hatred for Spider-Man is my love for you, Peter!"), because she completely blamed Spidey for her father's death. At the same time, Peter was perpetually on the verge of revealing his identity (!!)-- which could NOT have ended well. Writing Gwen into that hole in the first place was the beginning of the end, no matter how it ended up resolving. Conway himself was at a loss as to how to proceed-- he's said that in a couple of interviews. Break them up? Have them get married? Reveal or not-reveal? No way out but the hard way for a writer who believed in his own integrity as such.
And the book was also quite good for a long time after this event. The piling-on of troubles being cited was really ALWAYS part of Spidey's status-quo-- and this one really did finally break him. And getting to see him put himself back together and recover was a higher level of story-telling, IMHO. (And man-- that scene a few months later w/ MJ in the airport-- who needs romance comics when you can have that?)
HB-- still surprised at being such a fanboy sometimes!
Let me start this with a comment to HB:
To me, Marvel Comics WERE "romance comics", just with characters that had super powers. I didn't understand it at the time but, being a kid who grew up watching "the soaps" with his Mom during the summer, I could relate to the stories on that level.
Twitter subjects:
Hawkeye. Started as a villain but then the Avengers made him! MADE HIM!!! And then what happens, he goes and joins the Defenders and sides with them during the Avengers V Defenders war. What's the chizz, Clint!?!
Along with that second wave of heroes (Iron Fist, Nova, Omega Man et al), you had "female wave". Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, Tigra all female versions of male characters. Even at the time, there were negative letters.
The West Coast move. Ghost Rider, and the Champions, in Los Angeles. Daredevil moving to San Francisco. Man, Marvel was New York!!! New York was Marvel!!!
What the chizz, Marvel.
Byrne bringing BACK JEAN GREY!?! Really!?! WHAT THE CHIZZ, BYRNE (and Marvel)!?!
What I loved about JJJ was how that more he tried to stop Spider-Man, the more he became what he was trying to stop. That was the best part...
(I'm seventeen, and I am cool
I'm seventeen, I break the rules
I'm seventeen, and I don't care
'Cause I ain't goin' anywhere
I'm seventeen, and I am slack
I'm seventeen, get off my back
I'm seventeen, nothing to do
I'm seventeen, I don't like you
I'm seventeen, can take care of myself, I don't need anyone
I'm seventeen, all I know is you don't know how I feel
I'm seventeen, been through it all
Sex and drugs and alcohol
I'm seventeen, and I don't know
I guess I'm just a UFO
I'm seventeen, can take care of myself, I don't need anyone
I'm seventeen, all I know is you don't know how I feel
Head thrown out by a happy child
My young blood ain't running wild
People in my place all the time
Trying to reorganize my mind
Maybe they're writing something wrong
'Cause I don't know where I belong
So I don't care what nobody said
I ain't gonna give my life away
I'm seventeen, and I am free
I'm seventeen, now look at me
I'm seventeen, I can't go wrong
'Cause I won't be here very long
I'm seventeen, can take care of myself, I don't need anyone
I'm seventeen, all I know is you don't know
How it feels to be me, I'm seventeen
I'm seventeen, I'm seventeen, I'm seventeen).
PS: For those who want to relive all twelve parts of the first Secret Wars, just click on my name and I have them there to share... enjoy!!!
OK HB... Let's go down the Spidey Hole LOL!
First, I am not a writer but I read your post walking thru a parking lot to the gym. I came up with 4 plausible alternatives to killing Gwen before tying my running shoes, lol.
1) Gwen simply realizes that a chunk of concrete hitting her dad has nothing to do with Spidey. After all, Doc Ock was a bad dude.
2) Spidey rescues her from some criminal whilst he suffers serious injury and she comes around.
3) Gwen connives with JJJ to lure Spidey into a spider-slayer trap. The plot goes astray and Spidey suffering serious injury rescuing Gwen from a malprogrammed spider-slayer. Gwen comes around.
4) Gwen finds some hidden writing from her dad (diary, letter) explaining JJJ, Doc Ock, Kingpin, et al. are douche bags and Spidey is saving the world. Gwen comes around.
Frankly, a well formed conscience would suggest to not kill people, certainly innocent people. I don't think Conway's conscience was well formed and he simply enjoyed killing Gwen, wrecking Reed/Sue's marriage, brain-deading Franklin, etc. Or perhaps he was simply immature as I certainly was in my early 20s. But to suggest there was no alternative but killing her is, IMHO, simply a lazy excuse.
And Lee was asleep at the managerial switch giving a 20-year-old the family jewels tinker with.
(Phew, I feel better now. Thanks all!)
Regarding ASM's Average Sales Per Issue, you can see the data below.
I think it would be hard for anyone to make a solid statistical case that Gwen's death had a negative impact on sales in 1973 though there is an obvious dip in 1973 when Gwen died.
https://www.comichron.com/titlespotlights/amazingspiderman.html
1968 373,303
1969 372,352
1970 322,195
1971 307,550
1972 288,379
1973 273,204
1974 288,232
1975 273,773
1976 282,159
1977 281,860
1978 258,156
1979 no data published
1980 296,712
1981 242,781
1982 240,683
1983 241,762
1984 261,064
1985 326,695
1986 276,064
1987 284,692
Edo- glad you enjoyed the Archie pages. Those 'Best of' digests you mentioned are a treasure trove of Archie history, and so affordable. It is interesting how many of our more familiar artists moonlighted (moonlit?) at Archie. Incidentally, what are your thoughts about the various retoolings and variations they've tried in recent years?
Prowl- yes, Marvels were indeed 'romance comics'. Especially compared to Silver age DC; nothing against Lois and Lana but there didn't seem to be much steam in the pipes there.
HB and Charlie- oh, I've gotta join you in the Spidey rabbit hole! As one of those 'older' bronze agers, I read Spidey both Silver and Bronze. It would be difficult to say whether the death of Gwen hit me harder, or the death of her father Capt. Stacy (as a 10 year old, that story REALLY impacted me-last Marvel book I read for some four years). Lee and Romita made me love the character, Conway and others developed and grew that love. Indeed, those Conway stories seem to read better now than they did at publication (which may, of course, be some degree of nostalgia factor). I will say, Charlie, you provide some intriguing scenarios. Another; what if Capt. Stacy hadn't died, and revealed his knowledge to his daughter?
Red, HB, et al.
To be sure I can respect, and indeed expect, others' views to differ on this subject.
What really chaffs me is Conway and his excuse that "there was no way out" and "there was nothing we could do with Gwen but kill her."
For Conway to in essence assert that the ONLY CHARACTER in the entire Marvel Universe who was at a total dead end and irredeemable was Gwen Stacy, IMHO, is simply grasping at BS to justify a grotesque error in judgement or lack of maturity.
I mean, even our own remarks above and previously belie that BS. We speak of Peter, MJ, Aunt May, and numerous other characters maturing and growing in comics frequently. But Gwen had to be whacked... Like we've said, it took mere seconds to come up with scenarios to change Gwen's outlook.
And if Gwen was "stuck" after only about 90 issues of Spidey, how is it that MJ isn't stuck after 500?
And if Gwen had natural affinity to be with Peter, as a science major in college, how does the "shallow and self absorbed" MJ have an affinity?
I mean, one can just spend days pointing out Conway's fallow defence of killing Gwen. And what was his defence for mucking up the FF?
Boy oh boy, am I off my nutter or what?
Oh wow-- the 4th one, CH, the 4th one-!
While I could totally imagine your first three scenarios being used for real in a situation where it was deemed expedient to get Gwen out of her rut-- they do strike me as a bit pat. . . a bit too easy. . . which is something that comics don't shy away from, tbh, so it's not like they wouldn't work just fine. But the 4th one would have been an inspiration-- Gwen discovers her Dad's journal, where he not only affirms his admiration and support of Spider-Man, but also REVEALS THAT PETER PARKER IS INDEED SPIDEY!! ('Cause we know that he knew that-- it has canonical support--!) Now THAT I would totally buy into as a way to truly get Gwen to do an attitudinal 180. Good stuff!
And I do recognize your argument about "no other choice" being an awfully lame rationalization for a writer to use. . . 'cause man, I voiced that complaint LOUDLY (but fruitlessly) when Pete & MJ's marriage was "erased" from continuity via the Brand New Day event. Writing Spidey as a married guy was tough, and there were clearly weighty issues that came into play that were hard to resolve if one was trying to maintain the characters as realist human people. So I suppose there's a pretty solid parallel to your grievance there, eh?
And good job on the sales research--- nice!
Boy, 1985--- what the heck was going on THAT year. . . ?
HB
Ah, HB- you write so much more effectively than I. I totally agree, with Charlie and you, that "no other way" just doesn't wash. There's always another way, if you use some imagination.
1985- the year after the "Black costume " debut? Hmmmm...and why were no figures published in 1979? Again,hmmmmm......
Speaking of those sales figures, well done Charlie. I was looking for those last night and could only find figures up to 1969...
The www site that provided the data (I listed the link above) has some explanations... McFarlane, Byrne, etc.... for variations as I recall.
But it is interesting. And to imagine IIRC that back during WW2 the Big Cheese Captain Marvel was selling like 1,000,000 issues every few weeks and had multiple titles.
I have to wonder what sales figures are now.
(B.t.w. the link for the sales figures came from Steve Does Comics . Blogspot . com. I forget how it came up...Probably that goofy CH-47 dude pondering something from 50 years ago this year, lol.)
Oh yes, now I recall why SDC posted the link to comic book sales.
I was quoting from the Mighty Marvel Checklist published in 1968 (Captain America 111) and it said Millie the Model was one of their best selling mags! So I was pondering the veracity of that.
SDC did some digging and found that Millie was a really solid seller for several years and posted said link.
Interestingly SDC noted there was NO sales data provided for ASM or FF in like 64, 65, and maybe 66. Hmmm... Marvel keeping a secret?
Red, re: Archie comics. Yes, all of the various 75th anniversary books that were published a few years ago are great, esp. now that they're available on secondary markets, often for pennies on the dollar.
As to the recent retooling going on at Archie, I haven't read any of it, but just looking at it from the side, I have to say it all seems pretty cool - and it's fascinating how much mileage they're getting out of mixing the Archie/Riverdale scene with horror stories.
I find it really interesting, and refreshing, that Archie as a publishing concern has let a bunch of creators apparently go wild with new concepts or reimaginings (while, of course, still maintaining the tradition style for the digests that can still be found at grocery store check-out lines and magazine stands).
I'm keeping up with Archie which is now on Issue #702. Generally very enjoyable, with good stories, while keeping within traditional expectations of the characters (Like Edo said!)
But it is rather surprising how many monthlies are out, now... maybe a good dozen?
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