Redartz and I appreciate you coming back for a regular dose of friendship, conversation, and witty banter! Cheers!
Redartz: What he said! Welcome to the new era in the ol' BitBA. A weekly dose of Bronze Age nostalgia, trivia, fun, goofiness. discussion, debate, or what-have-you. Glad to have you with us again. Best wishes to all; now let the topic be named!
30 comments:
It being the day of a HUGE mid-term election in the U.S.of A. today---
And in lieu of someone suggesting a better/more-fun/less-arcane topic (which will be JUST fine, believe me--! My being an early-riser shouldn't give me any particular priority--)--
Do we as a group have any thoughts or opinions or observations about the use of presidents and/or other major political figures in comics? Any favorite ones? Any that really rankled your sweat-socks?
It comes to mind for me because of. . . wait for it. . . The Incredible Hulk. WAY early on in my reading days, I noticed that the most common convention for most comic books-- particularly DC-- was to NEVER actually identify the President of the United States by name or face. POV's were always with his face conveniently obscured or out-of-frame entirely-- and he was always spoken to with honorifics and such. Clearly suggesting "The President" could be considered an Institution for the purposes of a comics story, rather than a real Person.
Except in The Incredible Hulk. Where we got 'em all, from the Johnson administration (Tales to Astonish) through at least Reagan. On-panel-- and generally (and delightfully) idiosyncratically themselves. The high point being Nixon & Agnew in issues 146/147. . . where they were in fact active characters in a (rather silly) Leader scheme. And it was made all the better by John Severin's inks, which lent juuuuuust a touch of that caricature feel to Trimpe's images.
Whatcha think? Too delicate, perhaps?
HB
You're right about the Hulk. I remember one issue (#238) in which the first few pages featured not only a president, Carter, but also the once and future governor of California, Jerry Brown, as they tour the site of some place in the Golden State where the Hulk had recently been on a rampage.
Carter also appeared in Marvel Team-up #85, giving a speech before Congress as the SHIELD Helicarrier is in danger of crashing into the Capitol building (sorry if this is a spoiler, but it doesn't: Spidey, Black Widow and the gang save the day).
By the way, I don't completely agree with your observation about DC; the president did sometimes appear and was clearly identifiable. There's the well-known example of Superman meeting JFK several times, including that one story that was published after his assassination. Also, in that Supergirl story in which Superman introduces her to the world, she's introduced to both JFK and LBJ, as well as Jackie Kennedy, by Superman. And earlier in that story, Nikita Khrushchev also appears in a one-panel cameo.
In the 1970s, I remember having a Challengers of the Unknown comic (did some checking, it was in Super Team Family #8) in which both President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger appeared - Kissinger even punched one of the bad guys!
Back at Marvel, Kissinger also appeared in two issues of Super-Villain Team Up (#s 6-7) in which he was portrayed in a somewhat less heroic and, I think, more realistic light, basically chumming it up with Dr. Doom and telling the Fantastic Four that they could no longer interfere with Latverian internal affairs (gotta love an non-communist strongman in the Balkans).
As to your larger question, I don't really have much of an opinion either way on the appearance of real-world political figures in comics. How well it works out depends on the talent of the creative team. As a general rule, though, I think in superhero comics at least, it's probably best to avoid meetings with actual political figures - if for no other reason than the fact that it rather quickly dates the story.
Hey, thanks for the clarification on the DC side of the convention, edo. And I can totally see why a particularly "American Way" franchise like Superman's would feel comfortable with directly representing the Commander in Chief. And of course, my own memories wouldn't be a particularly broad sample, mind you--- ha!
Gosh, every time someone references Super-Villain Team-Up (a book I never even considered picking up), it always piques my interest. That Kissinger appearance alone sounds attractively risk-taking.
And yes, the fact that a "real" president firmly anchors the story in a true time period is just murder on a continuity-based universe. Hunh-- y'know. . .GUNSMOKE ran for 20 years. Did 20 years also pass in Dodge City during that time. . . ?
HB
HB (Waiting for a meeting at work. . . )
The mid-terms are getting lots of coverage here in the UK - I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the Democrats to do well (is that too political? Well, I'm not American so it doesn't matter if I say it).
HB, real presidents appeared in more comics than just the Incredible Hulk. Nixon spoke to the Fantastic Four in FF #102 (when the Sub-Mariner was planning to invade the surface-world) and Reagan appeared briefly in Uncanny X-Men #150. I'm sure there are other examples but those two spring to mind.
HB included "other major political figures" - I remember reading one of Marvel UK's comics in which Spider-Man mentions "Dr. Kissinger". I didn't know who Dr. Kissinger was (I do now) but I guessed he must be very important!
In 1977 the British Prime-Minister, James Callaghan, was kidnapped by the Red Skull in Captain Britain #22 or maybe #23, I forget.
And in 1979 the Canadian Prime-Minister, Pierre Trudeau, appeared in Uncanny X-Men #120.
Nothing to do with comics but I'll mention it because it's an amusing memory for me - at the time of the 1976 U.S. presidential election (when I was 10) my schoolteacher Mr. Jones (no relation) told us: "In America they vote for everything - even the dog-catcher". All us kids burst out laughing at the idea of voting for a dog-catcher. I've since discovered that Mr. Jones was ill-informed - Americans don't vote for the dog-catcher!
I think I probably saw Jimmy Carter in a comic before seeing him on TV, I believe he appears in John Byrne's debut as X-Men artist (#108). Wherever he appeared, the writer really exaggerated his southern accent, to the point I wondered if it was some insider comic relief ("who is this goofball?"). Maybe in a way it was.
I knew who Reagan was by the time he started showing up in four-colour print. And he always seemed to have his trademark jar of jellybeans at his side (did he in X-Men #150? I think he did). I noticed less instances of the president showing up in full view, and more cases of coyly showing them off-panel as time went on. I'm specifically thinking of a Bill Mantlo Hulk where the U-Foes are executing Hulk on live TV, and amongst the many scenes of riveted viewers is a shadowy man with his back to us, his hand reaching for, you guessed it, the jellybeans!
-david p.
First one that came to mind for me is the Englehart Secret Empire story in Captain America, where the leader blows his brains out in the Oval Office; of course, we never see his face, but Englehart later confirmed that he meant it to be Nixon.
Roy Thomas used FDR all the time in All-Star Squadron, but he'd been dead for almost 40 years, so I guess it wasn't the same as depicting a living president.
Too bad Howard the Duck didn't win in '76 ... that would've changed the political landscape :)
Two examples that occur to me:
The Avengers Serpent Crown arc, where Rockefeller dons the crown itself.
Then there's Howard the Duck 7, when he ran for president. The cover references both Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.
Oh, and Colin- I recall seeing Margaret Thatcher in a comic, but can't for the life of me remember where.
Oh, one more fun example- in Jerry Lewis 73, the story references a whole UN of figures: JFK, Harold MacMillan, Chiang Kai Shek, and Konrad Adenaur...
I don't have any objections to real life politicians appearing in comics, other than the point Edo made about seeming to date the story. I think readers are more relaxed about this now, with origins and historical references changing over time. It will happen again when millennials take over the editorship of comic companies.
But I must admit I always liked the shadowy figure in an armchair, or seated at a desk...
Great to see folks stopping by to follow the leader. Looking forward to these Tuesday chinwags!
AND THE WINNER IS: J.F.Kennedy
According to Marvel Wikia the following Presidents have appearances:
29 Appearances of John F. Kennedy (1961-1963) = 14.5 each year
13 Appearances of Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1969) = 2.2 / year
28 Appearances of Richard Nixon (1969-1974) = 5.6 / year
10 Appearances of Gerald Ford (1974-1977) = 3.3 / year
16 Appearances of James Carter (1977-1981) = 4.0 / year
32 Appearances of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) = 4 / year
13 Appearances of George H. W. Bush (1989-1993) = 3.25 / year
23 Appearances of Bill Clinton (1993-2001) = 2.9 / year
44 Appearances of George W. Bush (2001-2009) = 5.5 / year
56 Appearances of Barack Obama II (2009-2017) = 7 / year
3 Appearances of Donald Trump (2017-2018) = 1.5 / year
Germany here.
I am also very curious what the numbers will look like tomorrow. I admit, having at least one house to control Trumps trade wars may be helpful to my country. Europe - USA relationship has seen better days. Russian propaganda trolls are using it in many online forums (Newspapers, Facebook) to alienate us even more.
Germany - USA relationship and friendship is special and so precious! We share values that are under pressure around the world today (China, Russia, Brazil, Phillipines, a lot of the Islamic states, ...). We need to stick together!
Here the Presidents I found from the 60s and early 70s that show their faces to us readers (that is the era I know better than the true bronze age):
Nixon - FF 123 - 1972
Nixon - FF 103 - 1970
Lyndon B Johnson - Tales to Astonish (Hulk) - 1967
Lyndon B Johnson - Strange Tales 155 - Nick Fury - 1967
Kennedy - Journey into Mystery 96 - Thor - 1963
Chim, you are the HERO for tracking down that perfect bit of statistical minutia-- well-done, sir!
And--- the COVER, for heaven's sake, of SPOOF #3-!! How did I forget that? Spiro, in fact, delivers the punch-line to Tricky Dick. . . AND the Trickster is in the corner-box as well, in his iconic double-peace-symbol pose. . .
Colin Jones-- it's funny, the saying "He couldn't even get elected Dog Catcher" has been an election cliche' since forever in this country. I wouldn't be surprised if Mark Twain used it, honestly. Ah, yep--- geeze, the internet is handy--- definitely used in 1851, and likely as early as 1831. And. . . are there even dog-catchers anymore?? Did they ever exist as the nemesis of little kids and their faithful pooches, as portrayed in vintage stories, comics, and films?? Malevolently patrolling the streets for any canine prey they could get their nets onto??
We do have a lot of elected officials, though. A particular one in our district is the Judge of the Orphans Court. Which seems so astonishingly specific-- and I don't think there's ever been an opponent to the woman now in the position-- that I can recall.
HB
I think Edo had me won with "gotta love an non-communist strongman in the Balkans" referring to Dr. Doom. While I remember reading a line from someone, somewhere like 'when the communists overtook the surrounding lands'(Byrne's FF?) referring to Latveria, the thought that the US government - and Kissinger! - might turn a blind eye to Doom for the purpose of containing communism had not occurred to me.
Sheesh!
(I am plagiarizing! LOL) First one that came to mind for me is the Englehart Secret Empire story in Captain America, where the leader blows his brains out in the Oval Office; of course, we never see his face, but Englehart later confirmed that he meant it to be Nixon.
I was so confused reading that story b/c I wasn't sure who the man behind the mask was, being to young to be sufficiently cynical!
Elections: I can only say my polling place was twice (!) as busy tonight as I'd ever seen it. Also, around us, we vote for Park District and Water Reclamation officials. Why not dog catchers, LOL?
HB - thanks for getting the ball rolling on the new BitBA!
Oh, man, Colin, good call on Trudeau - can't believe that one slipped my mind, especially since that was my first ever issue of X-men. As for X-men #150, I pulled out the book I have in which it's reprinted, just to check on the Reagan appearance: he does indeed have a glass jar in front of him, very likely a reference to his love of jelly beans. Also on that same page are Margaret Thatcher, Leonid Brezhnev, and, apparently, although it doesn't really look like him, Deng Xiaoping, as well as whoever was the Saudi king at the time, and the Kenyan president, Moi, although again, it doesn't really look like him.
And not only did FDR appear in All Star Squadron, so did Winston Churchill - wearing only a bath towel in one issue that I recall.
HB, there are indeed, or should be, dog catchers in most municipalities and/or counties, although they're officially called animal control officers or something like that. I also think that type of work is sometimes contracted out to private companies or veterinary clinics or even the Humane Society. Don't know if they ever actually patrolled the streets with big nets like in the cartoons, though. And as far as I know, it's not an elected post anywhere in the US.
I remember a bunch of those mentioned.
How about an almost prez, Captain America #250. Love that cover!
In Marvel Two In One #27 Deathlok had been programmed to kill Jimmy Carter, and succeeded....sort of.
Carter and Reagan had a one-panel-each cameo, along with Gerald Ford, in Fantastic Four #178 wherein the Frightful Four are holding the FF for ransom.
Nixon and Agnew appeared, but didn't really, in Green Arrow/Green Lantern #83...if you know the issue, no explanation necessary, if you don't, you wouldn't believe us.
They also pop up in Captain America #144, reviewing SHIELD's new Aero Attack Force One, LMD use and Femme Force.
Henry Kissinger also appeared in Cap's title #193, the first "Kirby's back!" Madbomb story issue.
And let us not forget the best one....Prez Rickard, first teen President of the USA, who lasted four issues in his own title, and popped up in a few places many years later.
A bit of a nitpick-with-a-smirk for both Prez and the SPOOF #3 cover I mentioned earlier--
https://www.google.com/search?q=cover+of+spoof+3&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGranLosLeAhUvUt8KHb8DAI4Q_AUIFCgC&biw=1536&bih=755#imgrc=2iLuJl3drSvF8M:
(hmm-- did pasting that work as a link, at least? Maybe some Tuesday we could have a discussion on the finer points of how to enhance our posts. . . ?)---
----is that lowering the voting age AND making teenagers eligible for (many) elected offices in '73 (I think?) did not effect the minimum age requirement to run for president-- which has always been 35, right? Like, that's a founding-fathers stipulation.
And boy-- reading the Wikipedia synopsis of PREZ is quite a head-swiveller all its own--- ha! It really sounds much more like a narrowly-targeted podcast series, if anything. . .(which isn't a criticism, tbh)
HB
Red, Edo mentioned Margaret Thatcher in Uncanny X-Men #150 - that's what immediately sprang to my mind when you said you'd seen her somewhere. That appearance always stuck in my mind because Thatcher was shown with grey hair rather than her usual blonde (bleached blonde actually). Curiously our current female Prime-Minister does have grey hair.
HB, I remember how disappointed you were two years ago (me too) so I hope you're feeling a bit happier this morning :)
Thank you kindly, Colin J--
My state of mind is indeed improved. . . although Happy might still be a stretch. But considering the level of despair (no kidding) that I was getting to, the fact that we're taking verifiable corrective steps is very significant, and lends me resolve.
HB
I remember at the time being confused by the Cap / Secret empire story because I knew that Watergate had really (in real life) just happened, and I couldn’t understand how it could be happening in a comic book. It seemed all the more exciting and dangerous.
The SVTU Kissinger moment was the first one that came to my mind too as it was a really cool & unexpected anti-climax. The FF batter their way through Latverian air & ground defences, then have to defeat an army of Doombots, then have to beat Subby, and finally, after they’ve hacked their way through all that, the most unbeatable nemesis of all steps from the shadows….Henry Kissinger….and orders them to go home on the grounds that Latveria is a sovereign country and they have no right to invade the place. Presumably if Doom had been the monarch of Laos or Cambodia, he’d have had less of an issue.
Marvel always seemed to depict Presidents more freely in alternate realities and often in thrall it seemed to me (Rockefeller under the Serpent Crown on the Other Earth and Rex Carpenter possessed by the Man Beast on Counter Earth…I’m sure there’s a least one more).
I’m strictly a Marvel boy, but if we’re mentioning Presidents & Prime Ministers, surely we have to give a shout out to Mr. Moore? If I remember rightly, in Watchmen, Watergate never happened because Dr. Manhattan won Viet Nam. Conversely, V and Evey Hammond blew up Downing St and Parliament, presumably with everyone in them.
Congrats on taking back the House to the Democrats on the board. Congrats on increasing your Senate majority to the Republicans. Seems from that like the country moved even further in 2 diametrically opposed directions, which is very much how the US has looked to the rest of the world for the last 2 years.
Richard
Stan Lee:
RIP and Shalom.
You did write the Great American Novel, 22 pages at a time...
(There are places I'll remember
All my life though some have changed
Some forever not for better
Some have gone and some remain
All these places had their moments
With lovers and friends I still can recall
Some are dead and some are living
In my life I've loved them all
But of all these friends and lovers
There is no one compares with you
And these memories lose their meaning
When I think of love as something new
Though I know I'll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I'll often stop and think about them
In my life I love you more
Though I know I'll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I'll often stop and think about them
In my life I love you more
In my life I love you more).
A fitting tribute, Prowl. Rest well, Stan.
Red, since the posts here go live after lunch-time where I am, I was going to jump in and have tomorrow's conversation be about Lee's passing, but in this case I think it might be better for you to just preempt the usual Tuesday routine and put up a brief RIP Stan Lee post.
Man, I really thought Stan was gonna make it to 100.
R.I.P. Stan. You'll always be the man... Excelsior.
Edo- your thinking mirrors mine. Tomorrow will be dedicated to Stan, open for all thoughts and rememberences...
RIP Stan the Man. Thanks for the memories. Excelsior.
- Michael from Trinidad & Tobago.
Think of all the authors who meant more to you than Stan. Now look at the list and ask yourself if they actually meant more to you over your whole life.
I never really thought of him as my all time favourite author, but actually, he is.
Richard
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