Follow the Leader: Episode 64: Fleecing of Stan and Errant Memories!
Martinex1: Happy Tuesday everybody! Gather round for Follow the Leader! Who will take the lead and offer up a great Bronze Age topic for consideration? Let's get started...
I have a few subjects for today. Comment as you wish!
I just read an article yesterday “Picked apart by vultures. The last days of Stan Lee.” Seems like Stan the Man could be bankrupt within weeks as unsavory characters fleece the remains of his $MM fortune. Thoughts? The link is below.
When you were a kid developing your memory, do you ever find yourself recalling some Bronze Age TV show, book, song 40 – 50 years later? This happened to me yesterday as my colleague was relaying how her dog accidentally licked up some bleach and she gave it milk. I suddenly recalled an episode of that great Bronze Age TV Show “Frank Cannon PI” from around 1970. A villain had forced Frank to drink poison. The villain leaves Frank rolling on the kitchen floor in agony. Frank’s vision clears up for just a second and he spies a cat food bowl of milk on the floor, crawls over, drinks it, and is saved! Quite a BA memory to pop in my head as I listen to my colleague, and glad she could not read my mind!
Charlie, I read that article about Stan Lee just a couple of days ago. It's quite distressing, but certainly not the first time we've heard of a celebrity preyed upon by the unsavory elements of society.
I have a sense of trepidation at the inevitable passing of Stan. I am not looking forward to another rehashing of the "Stan vs. Jack" debate and who created what, blah blah, blah. I wish fans could just appreciate the gestalt of what these men created, understand that they were different people and that nothing lasts forever, and simply treasure the memories. The who-did-what conversation is perhaps best left to the attorneys.
When you actually sit back and think of it, just about the entirety of the Marvel Universe was pretty much created by Stan and Jack in about seven years (1961-68). Nothing that has come since that time has been anywhere near as impactful, either for themselves or even comics as a whole.
They both dined out on that incredibly fruitful creative period for the last 50 years.
Jack is rightfully celebrated as the most important artist in comics history.
And Stan? More people will cry at The Man's oh-too-soon imminent demise than almost any other living person in the arts.
So to be honest: where he is financially at 95 years old means very little to me. His place in history is secured.
I do feel for elderly people who are taken advantage of - Stan is no different. He’s had some very hard times and losing a spouse after that length of marriage had to be devastating. Hopefully some good people around him can protect him.
Regarding his influence... I think people underestimate his leadership. Jack was brilliant...a genius..yes! But it was Stan who established an environment for Jack to flourish and encouragedhis creativity to explode. That is genius in and of itself. It was Stan’s vision to do comics differently and his mission to change the way comics are created - that helped Jack. I don’t believe that Jack would have been as outlandishly creative under anybody but Stan. That creativity was never going to happen at DC or at Atlas/ Timely or at any other predecessor or contemporary company.
Stan’s genius was in connecting with the reader and creating a place where creativity was allowed to happen. He was a showman...yes.. but that is not a negative. He created the spirit of an unbridled universe. He also had a hand in many of the characters so I don’t want to underestimate that. His scripting and dialogue were perfect for the time. The puns, alliteration, quips, nuanced heroes with foibles was all partially Stan’s influence. The bombast was all Stan. I think Jack worked within a larger bubble with a lot more freedom at early Marvel. He was able to shine. I think Stan supplied the guts, the arrogance, the enthusiasm to shine.
Together they were something “better”. Not one or the other could have done it in a vacuum.
But I generally agree that I'm going to remember not the controversies but the pleasure derived from Stan and Jack and Steve and John Buscema and all the characters they gave us. I really enjoyed the episode of AMC's "Secret History of Comics" devoted to the Stan and Jack partnership (some neat interviews in there, I particularly liked the Jim Shooter accounts).
As for remembering strange Bronze Age tidbits, there are far too many to mention. One of my weirder habits is to invoke the words, "This Nightcrawler swears..." which I think I've read the character saying twice in print, once vowing to defeat the Hellfire Club and the other time, Belasco. The line just stuck in my head for some reason.
To answer Charlie’s second question - just the other day something popped into my head that reminded me about some sitcom starring Bobby Sherman. - I remember only vaguely watching it with my sisters on our big old black and white console TV. I think a kid’s haircut made me think of it.
And then that further reminded me of another showI watched with my sisters - “Nanny and the Professor”. Again no real recollection of the show itself (except maybe that the nanny was magical like Genie or Samantha from Bewitched).
I looked up both shows - the Sherman one was called “Getting Together” - and they both aired on ABC from 1970 to 1971 putting me at 3 or 4 years old. Weird.
Oh man, those Bronze age moments are constantly flashing thru my synapsis. A couple of them recently; something triggered my favorite candy bar of the rime, Marathon Bar. I think it was a braided piece of clothing.
The word "dumbwaiter" flashed me back to an early word based video game I played relentlessly- "The Count".
Somehow I wish I'd been in Stan's, Elvis's, or Ali's circle... I would, I think, have stopped the checks from being written, the bacon-peanut butter sandwiches from being eaten, and the fights from being fought.
Other Bronze Age flash backs, from out of nowhere, I suddenly start humming Petticoat Junction at work and one of my staff starts laughing (she's around 60) "Where in the world did that come from?" Heck if I knew... LOL
I wish Stan all the best; hope things turn around for him. I find all the "Stan vs. Jack" controversies on other comics sites tiresome, and unnecessary. I loved what they, and Ditko, Heck, Buscema, Romita, et al accomplished. The triumvirate of Lee, Kirby and Ditko was lightning in a bottle; I don't think anything would have worked out as well without those three pillars.
Second question: yes, Charlie, frequently (and if you ask my co-worker at the gallery, he'll testify to that emphatically). I'm particularly vulnerable to music, and find tv themes running through my head often. Today it was the "Partridge Family" theme (and there actually is a reason for that, watch this space for a few days to see why).
This news about Stan is troubling, but at this point, we really don't know much other than what the various parties involved (spokespersons, people "close to" Stan and/or his daughter, etc.) are saying, and as the link to Peter David's post indicates, some of these individuals may have their own agendas and are not being entirely truthful. I wish the best for Stan and his daughter, though, for what it's worth. To tie into Doug's comment, I wouldn't be surprised if these leads to a bunch of vicious Schadenfreude on the part of Stan's many online detractors. I won't be seeking any of that stuff out, but just thinking about it makes my stomach knot up a bit.
On another sad note, I just learned this morning (someone mentioned it at the Classic Comics Forum) that comic book writer Michael Fleisher passed away back in early February of this year. Mark Evanier posted a brief obituary at his site late yesterday.
I read the Stan Lee article yesterday, very sad. It reminded me a bit of Groucho Marx's last years. However, in that case, he had more family members who came in and help rid his house of hangers-on near the end.
11 comments:
I have a few subjects for today. Comment as you wish!
I just read an article yesterday “Picked apart by vultures. The last days of Stan Lee.” Seems like Stan the Man could be bankrupt within weeks as unsavory characters fleece the remains of his $MM fortune. Thoughts? The link is below.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/%E2%80%98picked-apart-by-vultures%E2%80%99-the-last-days-of-stan-lee/ar-BBK5SQW?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp
When you were a kid developing your memory, do you ever find yourself recalling some Bronze Age TV show, book, song 40 – 50 years later? This happened to me yesterday as my colleague was relaying how her dog accidentally licked up some bleach and she gave it milk. I suddenly recalled an episode of that great Bronze Age TV Show “Frank Cannon PI” from around 1970. A villain had forced Frank to drink poison. The villain leaves Frank rolling on the kitchen floor in agony. Frank’s vision clears up for just a second and he spies a cat food bowl of milk on the floor, crawls over, drinks it, and is saved! Quite a BA memory to pop in my head as I listen to my colleague, and glad she could not read my mind!
Charlie, I read that article about Stan Lee just a couple of days ago. It's quite distressing, but certainly not the first time we've heard of a celebrity preyed upon by the unsavory elements of society.
I have a sense of trepidation at the inevitable passing of Stan. I am not looking forward to another rehashing of the "Stan vs. Jack" debate and who created what, blah blah, blah. I wish fans could just appreciate the gestalt of what these men created, understand that they were different people and that nothing lasts forever, and simply treasure the memories. The who-did-what conversation is perhaps best left to the attorneys.
Doug
When you actually sit back and think of it, just about the entirety of the Marvel Universe was pretty much created by Stan and Jack in about seven years (1961-68). Nothing that has come since that time has been anywhere near as impactful, either for themselves or even comics as a whole.
They both dined out on that incredibly fruitful creative period for the last 50 years.
Jack is rightfully celebrated as the most important artist in comics history.
And Stan? More people will cry at The Man's oh-too-soon imminent demise than almost any other living person in the arts.
So to be honest: where he is financially at 95 years old means very little to me. His place in history is secured.
Yoyo
Great topics CH47. Thanks.
I do feel for elderly people who are taken advantage of - Stan is no different. He’s had some very hard times and losing a spouse after that length of marriage had to be devastating. Hopefully some good people around him can protect him.
Regarding his influence... I think people underestimate his leadership. Jack was brilliant...a genius..yes! But it was Stan who established an environment for Jack to flourish and encouragedhis creativity to explode. That is genius in and of itself. It was Stan’s vision to do comics differently and his mission to change the way comics are created - that helped Jack. I don’t believe that Jack would have been as outlandishly creative under anybody but Stan. That creativity was never going to happen at DC or at Atlas/ Timely or at any other predecessor or contemporary company.
Stan’s genius was in connecting with the reader and creating a place where creativity was allowed to happen. He was a showman...yes.. but that is not a negative. He created the spirit of an unbridled universe. He also had a hand in many of the characters so I don’t want to underestimate that. His scripting and dialogue were perfect for the time. The puns, alliteration, quips, nuanced heroes with foibles was all partially Stan’s influence. The bombast was all Stan. I think Jack worked within a larger bubble with a lot more freedom at early Marvel. He was able to shine. I think Stan supplied the guts, the arrogance, the enthusiasm to shine.
Together they were something “better”. Not one or the other could have done it in a vacuum.
Here's a link to Peter David's take on at least one person named in that Stan Lee article, just for a different perspective
https://www.peterdavid.net/2018/03/05/max-anderson-and-stan-lee/#comments.
But I generally agree that I'm going to remember not the controversies but the pleasure derived from Stan and Jack and Steve and John Buscema and all the characters they gave us. I really enjoyed the episode of AMC's "Secret History of Comics" devoted to the Stan and Jack partnership (some neat interviews in there, I particularly liked the Jim Shooter accounts).
As for remembering strange Bronze Age tidbits, there are far too many to mention. One of my weirder habits is to invoke the words, "This Nightcrawler swears..." which I think I've read the character saying twice in print, once vowing to defeat the Hellfire Club and the other time, Belasco. The line just stuck in my head for some reason.
-david p.
To answer Charlie’s second question - just the other day something popped into my head that reminded me about some sitcom starring Bobby Sherman. - I remember only vaguely watching it with my sisters on our big old black and white console TV. I think a kid’s haircut made me think of it.
And then that further reminded me of another showI watched with my sisters - “Nanny and the Professor”. Again no real recollection of the show itself (except maybe that the nanny was magical like Genie or Samantha from Bewitched).
I looked up both shows - the Sherman one was called “Getting Together” - and they both aired on ABC from 1970 to 1971 putting me at 3 or 4 years old. Weird.
Oh man, those Bronze age moments are constantly flashing thru my synapsis.
A couple of them recently; something triggered my favorite candy bar of the rime, Marathon Bar. I think it was a braided piece of clothing.
The word "dumbwaiter" flashed me back to an early word based video game I played relentlessly- "The Count".
I do enjoy those tastes of yesteryear.
Somehow I wish I'd been in Stan's, Elvis's, or Ali's circle... I would, I think, have stopped the checks from being written, the bacon-peanut butter sandwiches from being eaten, and the fights from being fought.
Other Bronze Age flash backs, from out of nowhere, I suddenly start humming Petticoat Junction at work and one of my staff starts laughing (she's around 60) "Where in the world did that come from?" Heck if I knew... LOL
I wish Stan all the best; hope things turn around for him. I find all the "Stan vs. Jack" controversies on other comics sites tiresome, and unnecessary. I loved what they, and Ditko, Heck, Buscema, Romita, et al accomplished. The triumvirate of Lee, Kirby and Ditko was lightning in a bottle; I don't think anything would have worked out as well without those three pillars.
Second question: yes, Charlie, frequently (and if you ask my co-worker at the gallery, he'll testify to that emphatically). I'm particularly vulnerable to music, and find tv themes running through my head often. Today it was the "Partridge Family" theme (and there actually is a reason for that, watch this space for a few days to see why).
This news about Stan is troubling, but at this point, we really don't know much other than what the various parties involved (spokespersons, people "close to" Stan and/or his daughter, etc.) are saying, and as the link to Peter David's post indicates, some of these individuals may have their own agendas and are not being entirely truthful. I wish the best for Stan and his daughter, though, for what it's worth.
To tie into Doug's comment, I wouldn't be surprised if these leads to a bunch of vicious Schadenfreude on the part of Stan's many online detractors. I won't be seeking any of that stuff out, but just thinking about it makes my stomach knot up a bit.
On another sad note, I just learned this morning (someone mentioned it at the Classic Comics Forum) that comic book writer Michael Fleisher passed away back in early February of this year. Mark Evanier posted a brief obituary at his site late yesterday.
I read the Stan Lee article yesterday, very sad. It reminded me a bit of Groucho Marx's last years. However, in that case, he had more family members who came in and help rid his house of hangers-on near the end.
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