QUESTION 1: How important an influence was the great art (from the likes of John Byrne, Gene Colan, and George Perez) to the success of stories penned by prolific writers like Len Wein, Ralph Macchio, Marv Wolfman, David Michelinie and Mark Gruenwald?
(Thanks to our friend Doug for inspiring question #1).
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| Ralph Macchio |
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| David Michelinie |
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| Marv Wolfman |
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| Len Wein |
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| Mark Gruenwald |
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| Michelinie / Perez |
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| Macchio / Colan |
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| Wein / Perez |
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| Gruenwald / Perez (c) / Byrne (i) |
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| Wolfman / Perez |
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| Wein / Jim Aparo |
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| Michelinie / Bob Layton |
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| Wolfman / Gil Kane |
QUESTION 2: Is there still life in the Western genre or has it truly been left in the past?
19 comments:
Two quick responses before the day starts..:
1) Someone in BAB once succinctly noted that comics is primarily a visual media, so if there's lousy art, proper perspective on the writing will suffer from neglect. I've known (and could name, but I prefer not to..) dozens of instances that, regardless of the storyline, the art made me cringe. A lot of '80s/'90s storylines, as insightful as they may sound, will be ignored due to what I consider overly-flashy or dated art.
2) As far as genre's are concerned, above-par story writing or characters will always traverse nearly any historical setting. I'm certainly not one for western movies or comics, but I'll still watch a Lone Ranger because I enjoyed the television series, perhaps even a John Wayne movie.
Another example is I was always meaning to pick up a few Steranko western covers from the early Bronze period, just for the cover art. I may never even open the comic to read the story, depends on interior art (a notion covered in my first point..).
1. I personally think the artist is usually more important to the popularity of a book than the writer. (At least for me it mostly is). A great example of this is that after John Byrne left the X-Men, I lost interest in the book and dropped it a couple of issues later. I really wanted to keep reading it, and loving it, but it just wasn't the same anymore. The characters didn't even seem like the same characters. I didn't start reading the X-Men again until Paul Smith came on board as the artist (and later John Romita Jr.) And I doubt very seriously that I would have been as into the New Teen Titans if say Al Milgrom had been the artist.
I have rarely bought a single book or a series based solely on the writer, but I have done so many times because of the artist. In a visual medium like comics the art greatly influences the tone of the story, and a great artist can make a mediocre writer seem better, in the same way a bad artist can drag a great writer down.
2. I think that westerns still have plenty of life left in them. I love a good western as long as it's entertaining. It is a great time period in which to set a story because the characters can't rely so much on technology, so it can make for a more interesting and challenging adventure for the hero.
Likewise with the comments above. I could not view Daredevil or Shadow once Colan and Kaluta left. BUT I stopped reading Spidey and FF because Conway killed Gwen and had Sue serve Reed divorce papers though art was good. Did Conway have a bad childhood?
1. Well, I'm a writer, so of course I think the writer is more important :) But I think the best comics have a good collaboration, a meeting of the minds (and talents).
2. Westerns certainly aren't as popular as they were 50 or 60 years ago, but if the right one came along, I think it could still grab people. Tarentino seems to want to revive the genre, though with middling success so far.
Mike Wilson
1. I think the right artist makes all the difference in the world in a visual medium like comics. Some of the covers in the post are good examples that I personally identify with. Perez was my favorite in the late 70s on the Avengers and FF. Layton, along with Romita Jr., came along on Iron Man just after I got out of comics. I wish they had been around sooner but I have since revisited a lot of those stories via the Iron Man DVD and really enjoyed them.
2. I don't think the Western is dead but I don't think it could ever be like it was back in the glory days. I never got into Western comics. But, being a child in the late 60s-early 70s, I grew up on TV westerns and loved 'em.
Somewhat related to this topic, I was just reading something yesterday about the "Rural Purge" in network TV that took place in the early 70s (basically the beginning of the Bronze Age...hmm...). The article was more about sit-coms moving away from western and country shows like Andy Griffith, Green Acres, F-Troop, etc. to Mary Tyler Moore, All in the Family and such. But it also touched on the western dramas like Gunsmoke and The Virginian being phased out as appealing to both a rural and older demographic.
Well, I don't know about all that but give me a good Bonanza rerun anyday.
Tom
I'm still a big fan of Marvel's western characters and really enjoyed the mini-series Marvel did a while back to update them. DC has Jonah Hex who has a pretty loyal, but apparently too small, following. Western mixed with other genres like horror or science fiction seem to be what people want now but I would certainly buy a straight forward western comic if it were done well.
1. Bad art kills good stories. Good art elevates bad stories. The two combined are why we read thru the bad issues to get the good ones that define successful creativity.
2. Westworld is the hottest thing on TV right now. Though it mostly deconstructs the western into a evil wish-fulfillment tourist thing. I grew up on the 70s westerns and think highly of them, even if I rarely ever bother to watch them.
Yoyo
I will continue to say, as I always have (of course, was anyone listening?), that if a comic has good art and bad writing, at least I can go back later and enjoy the art. As David B said at the top, how many well-written books with stinky art do you want to revisit? I bought The Invaders whenever I could as a kid. But any return now is a slog, regardless of how good Roy's words were. I can't close my "pictures eye" and just use my "reading eye" (although it would be pretty cool if the front of my head worked that way).
I don't know that I'm qualified to comment on the Western side of today's queries. I've never been a huge fan, although I have enjoyed a fair enough share of Western films, TV, and a few comics. But not enough to have a strong concern one way or the other.
Doug
Thanks all. I am torn by your arguments and flip flop as you make good points. But I think I may fall in the minority and say that good writing sticks with me. Obviously art plays a huge part and sometimes it saves the day but I think about a few things: A) This is going to really stir the pot, but I am not a big Steve Ditko fan. I definitely can appreciate him, but he is not anywhere in my top ten and probably not in my top 25 artists. But I really like early Spider-Man and. Dr. Strange - is that all because of Stan??? B) When good artists and writers are matched like Claremont and Byrne on Marvel Team-Up there are still greater and lesser stories because of the writing; the art is the same. In that run for instance, I greatly prefer the Captain Britain and Red Sonja books to the YJ/Wasp Equinox story. It all had fantastic Byrne art, the difference was in the cleverness of the story - can that be extrapolated out to say even with bad art I would have enjoyed certain stories? C) I think if a book has a good plot I enjoy it. For me the plot is key for differentiating great, good, and bad stories. Then comes the art. Then the dialogue. So I distinguish a bit between plotting and scripting though there is overlap. So the question shifts a little for me as to who actually plotted the story? Byrne plotted or co-plotted some of the X-Men run but I think Michelinie plotted the Demon in a Botttle story for Iron Man. Maybe Diko plotted Spider-Man using the Marvel method! D) one of my favorite stories from my youth was the Invaders/ Crusaders issue of The Invaders. As Doug said that art is horrible. I can see that but I didn't mind. Anyhow I will probably be convinced otherwise tomorrow. So that is a "firm maybe both!"
Re Westerns - I suspect an aspect of Westerns that is impossible to recreate is the sheer wonderment and heroism of the pioneer days. I think maybe we as "the entertained" have lost that appreciation. As a youth and generations before me played as cowboys. I had a hat and cap gun and holster etc. Cowboys were adventurous, fighters, explorers, pioneers, dangerous,etc. I think at some point that mystique and appreciation disappeared. With astronauts? A new type of explorer? I don't think Westerns will go away, but now I think Westerns are about a time and a place and less infused with a certain mystery and attitude. People say Star Wars is a space western - maybe that is true - if so what has been infused back into it is a sense of wonderment.
Having said that, I too really like the Eastwood movies - nice memories Colin. And regarding the "Rural Purge" Tom, don't be surprised if you see some Green Acres or Petticoat Junction or Maverick right here at some point.
1. Yep, the art is really important to comics stories, and I mostly agree with what seems to be the consensus here, i.e., that bad art can generally kill even a great story, or at least take away some of its impact. Even so, I can think of some exceptions, like Roger Stern's run on Avengers. I don't know if Milgrom is anybody's favorite artist, but quite a few fans still love and hold in high regard the entirety of Stern's run (and not just the latter part with art by Buscema/Palmer).
2. Like Doug, I'm not the biggest fan of Westerns. I like some movies, like Leone's trilogy, well enough, and I liked most of the few Jonah Hex comics I've read, but I can't say it's a genre that does much for me. And I think in cinema at least, it's way past it's heyday, and Logan kind of hit the nail on the head with his point about Westerns mixed with other genres being the more popular thing now. The latest Tarantino films were popular because they were, well, Tarantino films and not because they were Westerns.
Martinex --
We can be buds, because I'm also not the hugest Ditko fan. I love his run on ASM, however. It was perfectly quirky for early Peter Parker and his gaggle of oddball rogues. But the book matured as Peter matured, and Jazzy Johnny was the perfect replacement to shepherd the crew through that era of Coffee Bean life.
But Ditko's Creeper, Hawk & Dove, Shade, and Speedball? Nah... Not my cup of tea. But -- I would also make the claim that I'm not attached to those characters like I am to Spider-Man.
Doug
First of all, I have to say that the art is a huge influence on the story; like Yoyo and Doug said, I can tolerate a bad story if the artwork is great, but not the other way around - a good story can be derailed by bad artwork. Yuck!
Westerns? Not a big fan, but I believe there are a few modern classics out there, although the genre as a whole is not as popular as it once was years ago.
- Mike 'howdy pawdner' from Trinidad & Tobago.
Some very fine discussions here today; good questions, Marti!
1. Regarding art and writing- count me with those for whom the art takes precedence (as a visual artist, I'm guilty of some prejudice there). But this is not to diminish the importance of the plotting and scripting. The best stories have great art as well as great scripts. Some good stories have great art but lesser quality writing;though it seems to me that more commonly, books suffered from forgettable art while having decent writing. I do think that great art can salvage a bad story, at least to the extent that you can 'look at the pictures'.
As for Ditko, he can be an acquired taste. Upon first seeing his work on Spider-Man, I didn't care for it at all. I was accustomed to Romita's smooth, refined style. Yet it grew on me; now I love his work.
2. I have read very few westerns, and have only watched a few on tv or film (growing up, my Dad was a big cop show fan, so those were the most frequent things on our old console tv). I'd say the peak interest for the genre has passed into history like the cowboys it featured. That said, I also think it certainly has loads of story potential even today. Kind of like other 'period' works, be it WW1, Elizabethan England, or ancient Rome...
1. In comics art matters. Dreary scripts well drawn still have long gotten more attention than the quality of the story itself deserved. I'm a Charlton fan and as much as I admire the grit of writer Joe Gill (a writer so ubiquitous that I just assumed it was a house name) his low pay for page made some of his many many scripts pretty basic, but add in some tasty art by Pete Morisi, Rock Mastroserio, or Steve Ditko and you have a heady brew.
2. The Western ain't dead. It just lacks for anyone to want to tell another story in the genre. Doug Wildey's Rio is one of the great stories in comics, a real western movie on the page. Relatively recent Western films like the compelling "Appaloosa" and the second "True Grit" still prove there's life in those old hills. But in comics you have to be able to draw a horse and a hat and modern comics artists rarely can do both.
Rip Off
The Western is eternal. Look at Greek, Norse, or other mythologies (including Genesis) and they begin with CHAOS being formed into order.
There's your Western. Every week on Gunsmoke.
M.P.
As mentioned above there were some great Western Comics.
I really hated the horror westerns that were all the rage for a while.
Got those Jonah Hex's of a decade ago, but then stopped when they
just turned into the torture-of-the-month stories (Criminal Minds, anyone?).
Grew up loving Larry Lieber's Rawhide Kid, and even enjoyed the gay reboot.
Dynamite's Lone Ranger had me for a couple of years.
Prefer Westerns over Super-Heroes and always stop to check them
out when I see 'em in Previews or the local comic book store,
but very few are "real" western stories anymore.
D.D.Degg
D.D.Degg- you pegged "Criminal Minds"; who would have suspected there were so many nut jobs out there with a violent psychotic grudge?
Great to hear from a western aficionado. It's gratifying to see some love for the many other genres comics can feature. Thanks for commenting!
Some westerns not mentioned above but that I really enjoyed
include a couple of French comics from two sides of the track:
Lt. Blueberry is excellent and Lucky Luke is hilarious.
D.D.Degg
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